FREE NEWSLETTER
HAVE WE GOT IT ALL wrong? “It” is our relentless, lifelong focus on socking away great wads of money, so we don’t have to worry about earning another penny once we reach our 60s.
In fact, adherents of the FIRE—financial independence-retire early—movement aim to reach this blissful state far earlier, perhaps even in their 30s. This, of course, involves saving voraciously, with all the financial sacrifice that’s entailed. Even retiring in our 60s can seem like a Herculean task, generating much hand-wringing and financial stress. Is all this really necessary?
For those less enthralled with the traditional vision of retirement or its more extreme FIRE version, let me suggest an alternative. I’ve dubbed it ICE, short for “I’ll continue earning.”
This line of thought was inspired by a recent Ken Cutler article that raised two important questions about today’s notion of retirement. First, are we overly focused on amassing ungodly sums for retirement? Second, should we strive to remain useful throughout our life, rather than bowing out of the workforce in our 60s or earlier?
While I think our current concept of retirement could do with some tweaking, I wouldn’t want to discourage folks from saving aggressively for their later years. At the same time, I think it’s instructive to think about a different model of retirement, one where we continue to earn at least some income well into our 70s and perhaps beyond. Consider five implications:
Among readers, I can imagine two big objections to all this. First, what if we really want that life of endless leisure? Or what if we want to spend our later years doing things that nobody’s likely to pay us to do, such as writing poetry or volunteering at our place of worship? Clearly, the ICE strategy doesn’t work.
Second, what if we simply can’t work, either because our mind or body won’t allow it? Wouldn’t we need a huge pile of savings for that? No doubt about it, this is a huge issue. But it’s an issue we already face, as evidenced by the many families that struggle today to provide and pay for long-term care.
As I see it, our current retirement ideal—that the good life means stopping all paid work in our 60s and perhaps earlier—rests on two questionable assumptions: that work is a distasteful task that we should escape as soon as we can, and that our goal should be to spend our later years avoiding anything so useful to society that it comes with a paycheck.
I realize that many, and perhaps most, folks have bought into these two assumptions. But wouldn’t it be great if we viewed work and retirement differently? Indeed, I suspect that, if they could do work that they love on a flexible schedule, a lot of retirees would jump at the chance to enjoy the income, camaraderie, and sense of identity and purpose that work can offer.
Convinced? Even as I advance these ideas, I must confess to cold feet. If my younger self hadn’t saved like crazy for retirement and I now faced the prospect of working for the rest of my life, would I feel happy with my choice—or trapped? Could any of us reliably predict in our 30s what our desires will be in our 60s?
Still, I think there’s an opportunity here for each of us individually and for us as a society. Businesses, faced with ongoing labor shortages, should be working to design jobs that would appeal to older Americans. Congress should be tweaking the tax code to make it more financially attractive for seniors to keep working, knowing the revenue that the government gives up would be more than offset by the additional taxes that these older Americans end up paying.
And we should all be thinking not just about saving enough for retirement, but also about what work we’d love to do in retirement and how we could get paid for doing it. If we can identify that perfect job, maybe our 60s and 70s would be a whole lot less financially stressful—and a whole lot more fulfilling.
Jonathan Clements is the founder and editor of HumbleDollar. Follow him on X (Twitter) @ClementsMoney and on Facebook, and check out his earlier articles.
Want to receive our weekly newsletter? Sign up now. How about our daily alert about the site's latest posts? Join the list.
ICE. Nice. I hope it has “legs” that carry it into the cultural lexicon. In my case, I ended up with ICE, unintentionally. When I retired from MegaCorp at almost 62, I was DONE. Done with endless, non-productive meetings, personnel challenges and corporate buzzwords (amongst other things). Looking forward to a well-earned life of leisure with a few high level plans of how to spend our time mixed with some “we’ll figure it out as we go along.” My wife and I went a nice vacation (she was already retired) and it was great. Then I got home and thought to myself “Now, what?”. Hung a shingle on LinkedIn, started my own part-time consulting business and that was 6 years ago. My wife and I still get to do almost all things we planned to do in retirement when I am not working and there are few extra bucks for a splurge or two. So I still do similar work that I did at MegaCorp without the corporate BS and mostly when and where I want to-great. Don’t need to work, but enjoy it. I have friends who are fully retired and most of them have stopped asking me “When are you going to stop working” because I always answer when I stop enjoying it. My wife noted immediately after I started consulting that I was I lot happier and so far that has not changed. It must be in the DNA because my two older sisters are both still working also (and neither needs to financially.) I find the continued working/earning fulfilling and fun and I enjoy helping out younger folks and contributing a very small part to the success of organizations. This topic does seem to generate a good bit of heat and noise as if doing some work after “retiring” is somehow contrary to the American dream. I might suggest that the challenge lies in the word retirement not to mention a lack of recognition that these days folks can living 10, 20, 30+ years after retiring. To paraphrase from Shawshank Redemption, for some of us, getting busy living, rather than getting busy dying, seems to be ICE, at least for some of the time.
Jonathan: I enjoyed listening to your discussion about this article on the podcast “This Weekend with Gordon Deal”. Here’s a link to the podcast; your discussion starts at around the 23 minute mark.
https://thismorningwithgordondeal.com/b/This-Weekend-with-Gordon-Deal-February-17,-2024/844382444148522301.html
thank you, I think this is a valuable idea.
Problem is, currently there are vanishingly few employers willing to hire old people to work part-time. Most of those jobs are penurious – Walmart greeter, etc. So the only realistic option is some kind of entrepreneurship, which is difficult enough when young and sprightly. Remodeling society to support ICE will be a long road. FIRE is already a perfect fit for late stage capitalism.
Currently working 40-60 hour weeks age 64, and I am very tired. The German branch of our company offers a graded retirement, work 4 days a week, then 3, etc. That’s a perfect ICE fit and one I’d dearly love to have. But in Germany there are social pensions and healthcare, which in our case we do not have.
Also it’s important to preserve an idle retirement for those workers whose jobs are necessarily physical – nurses, trash collection, farm workers, etc. They deserve an idle retirement so they can have time to think for once.
We just met with our financial planner and she told us, spend your money !
(well some of it anyway), because she has seen so many people retire at 67 then get sick or dead at 68. I have a very hard time spending money 😉
Another great article Jonathon that I enjoyed and endorse. The discussion of this article was extraordinarily rich.
I think that ICE, FIRE, and combinations of them are all good options that each of us can choose from. One way to visualize this is with the Ikigai 4 circle Venn Diagram (google this term to see one if you want to follow along at home!) The goal of Ikigai is to have a “good job” and a good life in all the stages. (It is of Japanese origin.)
The four circles are:
1. Financial (“What you can be paid for”),
2. Values (“What you love”)
3. Talents (“What you are good at”)
4. Purpose (“What the world needs”)
A good Ikigai diagram shows the overlaps of the circles with labels. For example, a job or occupation that fulfills 1 to 4 is the ideal. (overlapping 4 circles in the middle (the intersection of the 4 circles in math terms). For example, if you are pursuing #2 and #3, but no #1 or #4, this can be labeled as a “Passion”.
So, what happens when you have #1 solved (financially independent entirely or to a great degree)? Then you have the liberty to choose an occupation or vocation the fulfills #2, #3 and #4. This sector of the diagram includes the central Ikigai portion but is broader since there can be occupations or vocations that do not provide enough #1 Financial to manage all your and your family’s needs but do provide enough to supplement your other (passive) income. This sector can be labeled as Passion + Mission and yields Delight and Fullness (but not too much more wealth).
Why is the #2, #3, and #4 sector overlap such a sweet spot? Because you are doing something you love, you are good at it, and in your opinion, it contributes something the world needs.
And how each of us defines #2, #3 and #4 differs. And our definition of “What the world needs” is an individual decision. And therefore, the comments and discussion above are so rich and varied.
Jonathan, as others have mentioned in the comments, we are glad that you worked hard at #1, and can now concentrate on #2 AND #3 AND #4 and thus have created and maintain Humble Dollar for the benefit of all the readers of your blog (and have great help from excellent associate editors, writers, IT experts, etc.)
So what you love (#2) is about helping other in personal finance and to lead a “good life”, AND you are good at writing and editing #3 (so lots of authors can contribute and we get ~ 8 excellent articles a week), AND finally you have as a purpose of giving to the “world” this knowledge and a place to discuss and learn about personal finance, retirement, FIRE, ICE, etc. with all the sections of your web site.
Thanks for the kind words — and the thoughtful comment. Mike Drak touched on this notion in an article last year:
https://humbledollar.com/2023/06/finding-your-purpose/
Both my parents worked past 75, not because they needed the money but because they loved apple farming. Likewise, I loved my work as a college teacher and found it hard to leave behind. Fortunately I’ve been able to teach part time in retirement. On the other hand, many of my friends retired the minute they could and never missed working. So I guess it’s a matter of to each her/his own.
Thanks, as ever, for the wonderful content, Mr. Clements.
Personally ICE resonates more than FIRE with this 48 year old. And with four children we will have to ICE regardless of how my wife and I “felt” about our jobs or work.
As a potential alternative to FIRE I suspect this will resonant with many. Further, your key insight that our future selves are unknown to us in the present deserves real reflection.
As I near retirement I think about using an ICE strategy for the reasons you discuss. My issue is that I don’t think I can find a situation where I can work at will. For example, if the weather looks nice for an extended stretch and I want to take time to go hiking in NH (you almost have to go during the week now because of crowds), I don’t see a lot of employers being happy with a last minute call. I’m sure they exist, I just haven’t found them yet.
While I have nothing against those who want to work for as long as they feel like for whatever reason, I did the FIRE method until I was able to financially retire 9 years ago at age 57. Unless one can work leisurely from the comforts of their home, I shudder at the thought of getting back into the “rat race” for any reason. I enjoyed most of my working days but I really enjoy my retirement life which allows me to set my own schedule for exercise, volunteering, traveling and anything else I want to do whenever I want.
Not sure 57 counts as FIRE
Another great article Jonathan. The quantity and quality of the comments attest to how much interest there is in this topic. I stopped working “full-time” almost 7 years ago. I consulted significantly for several years, but Covid slowed down the opportunities, and I backed off some myself. Now I’m willing to accept a great opportunity if it turns up, but don’t actively pursue new work. I have to admit I miss getting a paycheck, even an infrequent, not very large one.
I did ICE for 20 years. My view of retirement is having the ability to control my time to do anything I wanted. I was able to earn a bit of money consulting. After 30 years in a 24-7 high pressure service business, I wanted a fun, low-stress job. I began helping struggling business owners recapture their most profitable years.
My brother and I bought our father’s company so dad could retire. We built it up and sold it to fund ours. ICE is a great concept. Even better if you can set your own schedule.
I love this article because I’m an ICE retiree and loving it! I’ve enjoyed reading the comments here as I wrote a book on this subject called Victory Lap Retirement – Work While You Play, Play While You Work.
If you are willing to post an Amazon review on the book ( I learn from every review posted) I would be happy to send you an electronic copy.
email me at michael.drak@yahoo.ca.
ps if you don’t like the ICE concept you will not like this book.
Hooray, I finally figured out how to sign in so that I could comment!
I guess I’m an ICE retiree and didn’t know it. Hubby retired two years ago at 66. He had been working full-time for 50 years and was more than ready. I wasn’t ready to quit teaching piano, which I love, so I’m working several days a week, which (combined with social security for both of us) gives us enough to live on without drawing from savings. Knock on wood, I’ll be able to continue doing this until I’m ready to stop. We haven’t had any debt for over twenty years and we’re used to living frugally, with some traveling when we want it. We don’t feel deprived at all, even though our income is less than when we were both working.
I realize that if I was living on my income alone it would be a different story, so I am grateful that, for now, we are able to live how we want.
P. S. After almost two years I mentioned to hubby that I was a bit frustrated by our grubby house, because after teaching all day and making dinner and whatever other activities I was involved in, I really didn’t have the energy to clean. He rose to the occasion and now has a daily cleaning schedule. How cool is that? 💙
my wife has made it very clear, once I am retired while she is still working, cooking and cleaning become my province 😉
Thanks for another insightful article, Jonathan!
My husband says I’ll never retire. At age 67, I sold my financial planning practice, shifting to an encore career of speaking across the country, writing, and doing research focused on empowering widows financially. After six years, I “reFired.” That’s not traditional retirement. Now, at age 76, I’m a part-time adjunct faculty member at The American College of Financial Services. I write and speak about legacy and longevity planning at selected conferences. I also mentor surviving spouses and help nonprofits strengthen their endowments. Hubby is right. I’ll never retire because this 4th quarter purposeful living is very fulfilling.
Greetings Jonathan:
I think you’ve hit something here. I retired from employment with the state of NJ in 2010. Took one year off and then returned to part time work. First, I drove the senior bus for the town that I reside in. Learned a lot about issues facing seniors including some who hadn’t prepared for retirement and needed to utilize resources such as our community food pantry, free health care clinics, etc.
Currently, I am working as a Security Officer at the local high school. I work approx. 5 or 6 days per month. Last year, I earned around $14,000. My wife, my son (last semester of law school) and myself live off my state pension and social security. We have yet to touch our retirement accounts which are now close to $600,000. My son provides most of his own support through p/t employment.
I can pick and chose my work days and can easily configure my schedule to allow for travel. We’ve gone to Florida the last several winters for at least 3 weeks. I’m 68 years old and will work for at least another 2 years.
Our Vanguard accounts are in several different funds. I can say that I haven’t displayed the vigor that some of your columnists -tax consequences, bond ladders, equity/bond ratios, etc. but I feel the extra income provides less stress and a more leisurely attitude towards retirement. I have health care coverage through the state which also helps.
Love your site!
My husband and I retired at 72. He still works part time. We saved during our working years, but definitely not as aggressively as most Humble Dollar readers, but, given our long time on the job, our pensions are considerably more than what we took in during our highest earnings years.
To be honest, retirement was never a goal. We were both university professors and enjoyed the intellectual stimulation of our work. We both were involved with material was was rapidly changing, so our class preparation was a constant challenge. Our jobs also required us to do a lot of travel,
I suspect the growth of remote work may result in encouraging more people to stay in the work force longer.
i have no regrets about staying in the workforce into my 70s. But then I always found golf a total bore!!
I’m a professor, too, and I’m planning to retire next year right before I turn 65. I’ll have 35 years of service credit for my pension. I’ve always loved my work and especially love teaching, but I’ve grown very weary of university politics and just want out. However, I am going to work on a new edition of one of my books in the year after I retire, so that will give me a project to focus on while I’m transitioning out of the day job.
I suspect a lot of academics transition to retirement fairly easily because they can keep doing “part of their job,” if they wish. University politics was never easy, but now, it’s becoming overwhelming in many places. I bet you won’t miss the grading!
Best wishes!
I used to follow the FIRE internet forums closely but when I hit financial independence I kept working both to further supplement the portfolio and because I found the work meaningful. I still sometimes read the online stories and wonder if those who are “burned out” in their forties should just consider switching jobs or careers. Retiring before financial readiness and working in a job that is ruining your health both seem less appealing.
The issue of finding meaningful work when you enter the workplace, or even 10 years or more later runs directly into the buzzsaw of how to pay for starting a life and having a family, paying education loans (and retirement too). Partly this may be why people are getting married and having families at an older age than in my era.
Put this together with the hours demanded in order to make an above average wage, the pressure not to take vacations, to be available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, rounds of layoffs and rehiring, mergers, management changes, and I think it is easy to understand why for a lot of people getting out of the race early looks attractive.
So when your son or daughter comes to you after graduating HS and wants to talk about what they are interested in doing, what do you say when they want to pursue something they can never make a living at while paying off their probable school loans, let alone buying a house or having a family?
Then let us also discuss the real issue of age discrimination. Despite laws and lots of publicity it is still a real thing. There are of course some employers, like Boeing for example, who will when the need is great encourage experienced technical staff to stay on even into their late 70s. But, for a lot of companies, younger is cheaper in pay and benefits. The self-employed, or professionals like lawyers, or engineers, can have more satisfying work lives and have more choice on when to stop. However, for most others, trying to find a job after 55 means accepting underemployment and lower pay.
Being successful in our capitalist world means self-sufficiency and discipline. I think a lot of those who end up with more than they need at retirement have just carried those traits of success into their personal financial environment.
A perfect world would not have age, gender, race, nationality or religious discrimination. It would allow people to pursue satisfying employment instead of just having to chase the buck. There wouldn’t be people living in tents in the city park. I could go on, but why bother it is what it is……
When you’re playing the long game — which we should all strive to do — it makes sense to put your head down, work like a dog through your 20s and 30s, and save as much as you can, so you buy yourself an immediate sense of financial security and the prospect of financial freedom down the road. But then what? What are you going to do with that financial freedom? Many folks — me included — discover that there’s a lot of satisfaction in doing work we love, as long as we can do it on our own terms. And, yes, if you’re able to do that, the benefits are enormous. The big retirement problems include generating steady income, ensuring your days are fulfilling, and making sure you remain physically, intellectually and socially stimulated. And one obvious way to meet all these needs is to work. We live in a society where folks are far too judgmental of others — including judgmental of those who opt to keep working. It’s time we put that nonsense to rest.
Funny I’m currently working on a new book that captures what you are saying. I’m thinking of calling it “Going Long” It’s for kids like my son who are just starting out in the working world. FI is the goal they need to work towards rather than retirement. Once you achieve some level of FI you can bail on “bad” work and do “good” work even if it pays less and do it for as long as you like.
Well, I agree with this totally! Folks with an entrepreneurial bent, those with a strong spark of creativity, and more than a little bit of good fortune can sometimes find their way out of the corporate morass to a life of more fulfilling enterprise.
Others might be forced by circumstances into trying independent self-employment and find their niche. Certainly, the internet has created many opportunities for folks to try a different approach. I’m all for anyone who enjoys what they are doing to continue as long as they can or want to.
Congress should be tweaking the tax code to make it more financially attractive for seniors to keep working
To some extent I think the SECURE acts have already started moving in that direction –
There is no longer an age limit on making IRA contributions.
The current required minimum distribution age is now age 73 and moving to age 75 at a future date.
The ERISA rules now require some part time employees to receive employer matching contributions.
If the employer retirement plan also permits then the ERISA rules do allow most employees to elect to do a reverse rollover from a IRA to a 401(k) plan as an active part time employee and thus effectively allows the employee to defer having to take required minimum distributions until after the part time employment ends. Certain employee owners of the employer do not qualify for the active employment RMD exception.
Part time employees eligible to participate in their employer 401(k) whose adjusted gross income permits can elect to make designated Roth contributions to the employer 401(k) plan and also make traditional IRA and Roth IRA contributions based on the same W-2 earned income.
I am of the opinion that the tax code is sufficiently complex and would resist calls for specific tweaking the tax code for seniors or anyone else. The 1986 tax reform was all about simplification of the gaggle the 1954 tax code had been amended to. The current TCJA provisions which expire at the end of 2025 is a complexity disaster. I do not hold much hope for a better tax code from the US Congress.
I appreciated the article on what it had to say. I’ve been a saver all my life and when I retired I had more than sufficient resources. I only learned about the FIRE movement afterwards. However, I wish I had plugged in to what the FIRE folks had to say as I could have been optimized more.
First, I like to work, and I have a part-time job in my chosen career now. I just didn’t want to work as hard as I did before. I volunteer as well but I like having more options.
Second, what I find compelling about our FIRE friends is something I always believed… Make hay while the sun is shining and do it while you are younger, not older. It doesn’t necessarily mean being a total drudge, have fun along the way, but we don’t know what tomorrow will bring so save now to keep a wider variety of options for tomorrow. One doesn’t know what will come next and I prefer a greater set of options.
Jonathan – your article reminded me of a conscious decision I made when starting college. My real interest was in archeology but decided I wouldn’t make the money or have the job stability other degrees would offer. I pursued engineering (at a state college), graduated debt free (thanks mom & dad) and had a rewarding professional career, the last 31 years all at the same company. Thanks to a good salary, and 401k plan, I retired 5 years ago at 58. I often wonder what path an archeology degree would have lead me on, but am greatly enjoying retirement with my family, and proud of my former career.
I have accidently backed into exactly what you are suggesting. I thought I had a profession that I would love all my life, though life’s ups and down, it turned into a train wreck. I’m still trying to figure out if it was my fault or simply how the world turns. Doesn’t matter since I can’t go back and change it. After sitting around doing nothing for more than a year, I’ve starting doing something part time for a small amount of pay, but it seems to meet my need to do something useful. I have enough retirement nest egg to make it with SS and wife’s salary. So, yes I agree if that had been the plan all along, I would have been much happier, I think? But regardless , I’m happy now.
Thanks for a timely, thought provoking article.
For folks who have had trouble today accessing this page, as well as the rest of the site, please accept my apologies. The site’s ever-dutiful web developer, James, is on the case.
Thanks Jonathan. I did several trouble shooting maneuvers and figured it had to be the site.
Thank you for this post. I was trying to troubleshoot my computer, but it seemed the problems were limited to HumbleDollar. Thought maybe I’d hit my lifetime limit of page views.
Was just going to e-mail that the server was not responding. Seems okay now.
I noticed the extreme slowness with HumbleDollar over the last few days with it taking a long time to open pages. Glad the issue has been resolved.
While I agree with the holistic view you have, I think that the FIRE people are on to something. As we all know it is better to save and invest $1 for 30 years than $1 for 10 years.
Those that follow the FIRE mantra and then 10-15 years later decide to back off the gas and smell the roses are still way ahead of those that waited.
I find the FIRE folks nonsense in that all they’re doing is calling it retirement and independence when they’re simply leaving their job, starting a blog on how they retired early and are financially free but are in fact simply earning income on their blog. Of except for the couple who live way off the grid in the middle of absolutely nowhere and live so frugally it truly looks painful. What life is that? I love what I do, can do it from anywhere, and will keep on keepin’ on as long as my math skills stay tuned up (my 70s anyway I anticipate).
It’s great to be in on the origination of an acronym!
Nice work on ICE, Jonathan. And as one who is working part-time at 67 and absolutely loving it, I agree with almost every word.
Just need to be clear that part-time work doesn’t obviate volunteerism. I’m doing both… with plenty of time left over for exercise and watching soccer games on TV and those vital afternoon naps.
There is a great article in the Jan 25 issue of The Economist on this same topic, entitled Why You Should Never Retire. It goes on to cite examples like Georgio Armani and Warren Buffet, both of whom worked well past their 80s running their respective empires.
While it may be great for some, it isn’t for everyone, which one reader aptly pointed out in his letter which they published in response to the article. In it, he writes:
Although I will admit to having experienced a bit of ennui over the last five years of my retired life, anytime I feel the urge to apply for another W2 job – mostly the only type of paid work I’ve ever known – I need only reflect on why I quit, which includes much of what the above letter writer observed, and I easily let go of such foolish notions and return to musing on the way the sun is hitting the hill outside my window this lovely morning.
I’m not disagreeing that many corporate jobs are horrible. Remember, I worked at Citigroup for six years! But I also think that working should be seriously considered as a “retirement” option. I’m optimistic that humans — with their great ingenuity — can create jobs for themselves that are both fulfilling and at least modestly lucrative.
Awesome comment! I laughed so hard that tears came. Thanks!!!
Another great article Jonathon that I endorse. After “retiring” seven years ago, I finally got my dream job: full time investor. I continue to get up early every morning in order to keep up with what’s going on in the financial world as everything ultimately affects your portfolio. I can honestly say I’m enjoying my “retirement’.
“
An excellent article and one I wholly agree with. That said, I think as a practical matter no one can count on having either the health or opportunity to keep working part-time in their later years. But I think your article does a great job presenting some of the pro’s and con’s of this option for consideration.
A timely article for me. I’m about to end my 30-year career in public service for a new venture. I resist when my friends suggest that I’m about to “retire.” Rather, I see myself as ready to resign, retrench, and perhaps revive myself with a new business as I look to my 60s and beyond.
Many of the bullet points in Jonathan’s article ran through my mind as I made my decision. I’ll confess that I didn’t give much thought to # 4 (demographics of an older working population), as one person’s job change really has no impact on the macro picture. Still, I’d be intrigued to hear more about his suggestions – and those of the HD community – for tax and policy changes that could incentivize older folks to return to or stay in work.
I’m not against your categorization of ICE, but I question the definition of the “earning” part. During my retirement that began 3-1/2 years ago, my investment and retirement accounts have earned interest and dividends. During that time, I’ve taken self-gratifying classes, undertaken several house projects, spent more time on my bike and at the Y, volunteered at my Church (way more than I thought I would!), and tutored reading for at-risk kids at an elementary school. None of these create income, but “earned” great personal satisfaction.
The humbling question for FIRE devotees is when do they get to spend the money at a much less frugal rate, and the answer might be never. Retire at 35 and try to live off the nestegg till 90 means continuing that very frugal lifestyle.
I agree 100% with the concept of ICE, but I will point out there is more in retirement than my spending, I am leaving a legacy. My kids had an example of how to save & invest and were taught to be critical thinkers. They should be successful in their retirement as well.
But I still have things I want to do. So I am on a SKI trip, (Spending my Kids Inheritance,) while I skate across the ICE. While I can’t take it with me, I have met my family responsibilities and they should be successful, regardless of what legacy I leave. Now, I can enjoy some other things.
THANK YOU MARK!
A friend once said to me, “When you see yourself in your children, you receive a blessing.”
It’s so satisfying to know our offspring will handle any anomaly in life, and will have no problem in retirement.
Nice acronym/pun work there, Mark!
From todays WSJ
Nearly 20% of Americans 65 and older were employed in 2023, which is nearly double the share of those who were working 35 years ago, according to a recent report from the Pew Research Center.
But why are they working? What percentage are working because they chose to, or because they need to financially?
what really freaks me out, is the AARP has seminars on applying for jobs..
funny notion of retirement.
But this does go to your point, a lot of retired people don’t have a choice, they have to work..
This is, of course, a “problem” of privilege. How many people have jobs they will to want to keep into their seventies or eighties? How many would have the physical and mental capability, and how many of those would find an employer willing to hire them? I was a techie, how many seventy-something techies do you know?
In this case FIRE is safer than ICE. What if your chosen career becomes obsolete? (AI, anyone?) I used to read that young people would have three or four careers, it’s probably gone up, but would be a bigger problem as you got older. What if you develop a debilitating disease? (Long Covid, anyone?) What if your employer goes bankrupt, or simply starts easing out older employers? (Mine flirted with the former and embarked on the latter.) It’s a gamble, and I don’t think the odds are very good.
Of course, you could also be un-American and pursue a compromise. FIRE as described by Dick seems excessive – retiring in your thirties is going overboard in one direction, just as planning to work into your eighties is going overboard in the other. I didn’t set out to FIRE, but thanks to a natural frugality I was able to retire in my fifties.
I also don’t buy the idea that we have to have a “purpose” in retirement. Sure, we need to look out for each other, but if we all spend all our time taking care of other people, when does anyone get to have fun?
My purpose in retirement is enjoying doing whatever I want to do, whenever I want to. Some people may think that is laziness or being self-centered, but I earned the right to live my retirement as it suits me.
Nobody is trying to take away your “right to live my retirement as it suits me,” and there’s certainly no suggestion in my article that this should happen. So why the vehemence in your multiple comments on the article? Would you like to take away the right to work once folks reach age 65?
I am a professional engineer who retired from full-time employment at 62. Now I am “privileged” to work part-time running my own engineering business.
it is a blessing. How did I receive such a privilege? It started when I took my PE exam before I even graduated from college. It continued when I took my second PE exam after 5 years, as soon as I was eligible.
Then I paid my dues for an unnecessary license for 35 years. I also built a large network of professional contacts. Finally I started doing PE work for victims of hurricane harvey on a pro bono basis for several years (gaining additional experience and contacts) before I actually retired from my full time job.
so when I “retired” I was privileged to already have a functioning small business in place.
One person’s privilege is another persons careful planning and hard work.
I have a problem with overuse of the word “privilege.” If someone has a job that they’re able and willing to keep into their 60s or 70s, I wouldn’t call them “privileged.” I’d call them fortunate.
Sure, any number of circumstances can bring your corporate career to a halt. But if you’re able to survive those challenges and continue in a job you enjoy, you can be grateful that fortune smiled on you. No one granted you a “privilege.”
I agree — the word “privilege” is overused. So many things can be described as a privilege: early retirement, having a pension, travel, owning a home, going to college, eating at a fancy restaurant. It starts to feel like a “privilege” is anything you wish to denigrate.
Privilege or luck? My dad taught me that by working harder ( I prefer “smarter”), the luckier I got.
Having a choice of when or whether to retire is indeed a privilege. I submit that the majority of people in this country don’t have that choice, and certainly many fewer in Asia, Africa and Latin America.
I don’t think anything in the article implied that you have to have a purpose in retirement. It’s more about having the perspective that if you do feel a purpose, you have the financial comfort level to pursue it.
When I perused some FIRE stories some years ago whereby couples talked about their FIRE lifestyles I seemed to notice one thing–they didn’t have children. Hmmm… I can’t imagine my life without my 4 now grown children. Being a good provider was a huge motivator during my working years, and that motivation helped me earn a nice retirement. The FIRE life seems unbalanced to me.
When Warren and I were first doing our retirement planning, he always used to say, “I’ll never retire. I’ll just keep writing into my 70s and maybe 80s.” And he meant continuing to make money at his writing, not just writing for fun or free. It was his ICE plan and it made him less concerned about retirement savings than I was.
Fast forward to today, his mid-60s. He still has the ability to write, of course, but I wonder about his marketability—publishers aren’t exactly clamoring to give paychecks to older writers. There are plenty of younger, cheaper writers out there, not to mention the rise of AI writing apps that can research and write now at the click of a button. And Warren’s been surprised to feel his lifelong drive to write begin to dwindle. Brain work like that takes a lot of energy.
While we wait for businesses and Congress to design attractive work programs for older workers, I’m glad I kept socking away and investing our savings all these years, because I’m not sure ICE is as easy to do as some may think.
Laura..you are doing your part by being a supportive wife and keeping things going. Don’t give up. Wish you and your husband much success.
As I said in the piece, I’d never want to discourage folks from saving. Money gives us options. But I also think it’s time to change the conversation — to get folks to think about the possibility of working longer and the virtues of doing so.
Agree, as we transitioned to be fully ICEd up:
https://humbledollar.com/2023/06/how-we-unretired/
Good article Jonathon discussing different points of view on the topic while not judging anyone about the choices they may make. Everybody has to decide what’s important to them and then hopefully live that life. What’s a meager existence to one person is more than enough for another while working at a job may be purposeful for some and pure drudgery for others. Too often these days we disparage those with viewpoints that don’t agree with our own and that’s just wrong.
Perspective is everything. You reminded me of an old TV show staring Phyllis Diller. The premise was a rich family on Long Island that suddenly lost it all, but were trying to keep up appearances as if nothing happened. The show was short lived as the audience could not relate to that change.
Well said. Thank you for the thoughtful comment.
If it’s been a lifelong dream to climb the Himalayas while you’re still able, join the Fire Movement but be prepared for the shortfall you’re likely to experience in later years. Don’t make your lifestyle worse – learn how to make money. You can waste your time making soap in your bathtub or washing out ziplock bags. Watching every penny is a pain.
Life is too short to live with a scarcity mindset. – use your talents and make more money instead. Besides, the Fire movement is slowly dying and some think it may have been started by a few weirdos.
Good article, Jonathan
Okay I don’t understand why your post is getting negative reviews. I’m not judging FIRE peeps, I just think you need to have some fun along the path to retirement just in case you don’t make it that far.
Dan – thank you. Mystifies me too as I am definitely Live and Let Live person. Maybe the negative reviews came from those who like to re-use and wash out ziplock bags. LOL
Ha!! You make me smile and reflect Marjorie. My Mom would cut up tissue boxes in rectangles to use to make grocery lists. And if they would have been available, reuse sandwich bags until they fell apart… even when she and Dad had a no worry retirement from that very kind of lifestyle.
Old habits!
Your mom sounds like a champ!
I write notes & short grocery lists on the tops of Kleenex boxes “pullaways”. It’s an environmental thing, I have plenty of paper. 😀
PS A reused sheet of wrapping paper gives me as much joy as finding a dime on the sidewalk.
And yes, I am very fun at parties!
Donny..our moms were upcyclers…women before their time. My mom used back of used envelopes for her food shopping list and put her store coupons inside the envelope. Little ways to save which gave them satisfaction.
I still do! Or use them to write addresses to tape onto reused Amazon bubble bag packages for mailing.
I might have qualified as a FIRE adherent before it became a “thing”, though my adherence was not exceptionally rigorous; I only strived for a simple, uncomplicated life, in a rural community. With that, the savings came easily. At any rate, I could have retired at 53 but continued to work until 64. Satisfaction in completing several large projects, plus the knowledge I could have quit at any time, made that easy too.
Retirement so far is not about leisure. Rather it has been a dedication to quality of life, exercise, volunteering, and focused learning. I do technical work a few hours a week to stay mentally active and socially connected. Above all, I know I am extremely fortunate and acknowledge my blessings daily.
Yes, you’re working on your own terms and can stop anytime you feel like it. I did that as well up to age 70.
Whoa Jonathan,
Im not buying what you’re selling AT ALL!
A few points:
1) “fewer labor shortages and more taxes collected, including the payroll taxes needed to keep Social Security on a sound financial footing”. This could easily be solved with increased immigration.
2) “Congress should be tweaking the tax code to make it more financially attractive for seniors to keep working, knowing the revenue that the government gives up would be more than offset by the additional taxes that these older Americans end up paying.” Isn’t this line contradicting the line above one? Also if people work at lower paying jobs for their entire life, wouldn’t that decrease both the Social Security income and payouts?
2) “Our work would be our purpose”. Never was, never will be, especially with the way companies’ treat their employees nowadays.
Regarding 1): It doesn’t appear that our country can “easily” solve our immigration woes, whether it be stopping illegal immigration or fixing our legal immigration processes. Regarding 3): Although work is not my primary source of “purpose”, I do find meaning in my work (including my unpaid HumbleDollar gig), and feel I am treated very well by my current employer, as well as the company I retired from.
I don’t disagree with JC’s article, but you make a couple darned good points in your reply. The need for immigrants is definitely an inconvenient truth. And while some occupations are worse than others, it’s hard to find purpose in work when loyalty isn’t a two way street. I worked to age 70, but was lucky to transition to a situation that provided me a full years income for only 4 months of work.
I’m all in favor of the free movement of people. But I’ve read — can’t remember the source, sorry — that immigration alone would not fully solve our demographic problems here in the U.S., though it would clearly help. And, to state the obvious, in a world with an aging population, all countries can’t solve their demographic problems with greater immigration.
Spot on JC. My 2 daughters and their husbands have given me 7 wonderful grandkids. The economy needs increased birth rates. Environmental advocates may offer a different perspective.
Yes, but when it comes to your last sentence people from all over the world, both “skilled” and “unskilled” want to come to THIS country, the one with the most opportunities, and both are needed in spades.
These people would increase our productivity, pay income, Social Security, and Medicare taxes
Regarding 2): If folks work later into life, they would continue to pay income taxes, even if Congress opted to tax those earnings less heavily — and more taxes collected from those folks is greater than no taxes, so there’s no contradiction.
Hi Jonathan, this is Chris. Good article. Agree with Ken that I am thankful you are an ICE person. Spouse retired at the first of the year and is going through their own ICE experience. They have specialized knowledge in their field and the company asked them to do some part time work (at a much higher rate so people don’t call for little things). We knew there would be a transition phase. So far it is going ok.
Mr. Clements, Thank you for all your hard work. I read every word.
Yes, but as you point out there are exceptions for those jobs that are physically straining and working just isn’t possible.
From the first time I heard the term FIRE, I developed my own acronym – FARCE. I follow many of these people and the reality is they have not retired at all in the usual sense. Many also were able to build assets because they had two incomes, often large incomes to begin with.
Still today I read on various blogs and FB groups about individuals goal of retiring in their 50s and the stress of accumulating funds to do so. For some it seems a badge of honor. I don’t get it. Hey, if you seek to retire in those years don’t complain about money, health care or taxes.
What’s wrong with the mid 60s? And there is certainly nothing wrong with part-time work in those years. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with not working. I worked until I didn’t have to because I didn’t want to. No doubt someone who retired at 55 might think I’m crazy missing out on 12 years of retirement.
That’s not my perspective, rather it is I achieved a financially worry free retirement, no frugality required, no looking to live cheaper, no relocation necessary, no budget to stick to.
It is a mystery to me why you take the time to follow a group of people who you view so negatively.
I follow lots of people and politicians I disagree with on various media because that is how I learn, test my views, challenge myself. Engaging only with people you agree with doesn’t expand knowledge IMO.
Sorry, but I can’t remember when you have ever written about how your views have been changed by anyone with whom you disagree.For example, can you point to anything new you’ve learned by continuing to follow the FIRE folks that has changed your opinion of them from what it was when you first began criticizing then on HD?
I’ve learned the R in FIRE rarely means retire in the traditional sense. It means dropping out of a regular job and doing something else. I learned that many FIRE folk have no trouble giving out (selling) advice based on their new found financial expertise. . I learned that many are shy about giving out information and don’t like to be questioned about things they say.
One women liked to brag about buying all her children’s clothes at garage sales and thrift shops, even a two year olds shoes. I posted that buying used shoes for a child was not a good idea and why, my comment was deleted.
Recently one FIRE blogger who claims to have a net worth of $2.9 million and only lost $10,000 in the market in January. I asked in a comment what percentage of his investments were in equities because that loss seemed low. My comment never saw the light of day. This same person who travels with his family of five four to five months a year gets $40.00 subsidized health insurance, subsidized cable and huge college assistance … he claims. Says he “retired” at 38.
Others are hot on selling their stories, blogging and getting publicity, selling their advice and then simply disappear.
I’ve learned we rarely get the whole truth.
I have noticed the same things – the arithmetic simply doesn’t work on all the FIRE blogs I’ve looked at..
… and there you go. To each their own.
I’ve been fortunate to have the best of both worlds. Over the course of a 30+ year career as a veterinarian, I never once felt like I had to ‘go to work’. I’ve been enjoying retirement just as much, and would not want to go back into the work force, even part-time at this point. The strategy laid out in this article seems to me to be more reasonable than the FIRE approach.
Are you the Veggi Vet from Pa who works with Whippets?? Small world? I agree about retirement plus it has enabled me to have the pets I never could when I was working full time and traveling.
Nope, I’m the VeggiVet from NY who longer works.
Good for you, me too.
Great article. I have a different perspective on retirement colored by prior generations of my family and experiences in my profession.
My Grandfathers worked blue collar jobs and both had farms – side hustles before side hustles were a thing. When they retired after 35 years at their regular vocations, they farmed full time – this continued for decades – my paternal grandfather was still working in his early 90’s. My Uncle is a farmer, still running his full time farm at 80. My Dad retired from his time with the County Engineer at 53 with a pension and worked for a friends farm for the last 20 years plus doing some gentle farming with me on our little place.
I am a corporate lawyer, who left private practice to join a clients steel company as general counsel. I now run the place. Many of the lawyers that I practiced with were still actively practicing in their 80’s. I have a side hustle estate planning practice, a small farm, a firearm business and just got involved in a robotics & automation startup that supports the steel company with initiatives to help bridge the labor gap we presently are experiencing.
I cannot imagine hanging all of this up anytime soon – not because I couldn’t afford it, but because it would be difficult to explain my laziness to all of these guys! 🤣
Sounds like you really enjoy your “jobs”! Congratulations!
Never a need to give up a job you really enjoy. Carry on, Kevin
Retirement is not laziness, it’s well earned leisure.
Agreed plus retirement creates a job opening for someone else to pursue their dream ?
You nicely knitted together the ideas of both the personal and societal rewards of working past the present retirement age goal of many of us. It could be that some succumb to peer pressure to retire, that they ought to move on to a life of leisure. Others no doubt are genuinely tired of jobs that generally carry the demands of more responsibility at the end of a career. Sometime last year, I forwarded to my HR department an article from an HR publication highlighting companies that were helping older workers shift to less demanding jobs with less hours and less pay, to help retain them in the business.
Mr. Marsh, what is the article? drsinger59@hotmail.com
Joe, I’m not sure this is the exact article, but it seems to be a regular topic for the site.
https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/news/benefits-compensation/many-older-workers-prefer-to-ease-retirement
Jonathan, I enjoyed this piece very much. You make several excellent points. Thank you for sharing.
As a semi-early retiree at age 56, I have fortunately been retired almost two years. As such, I am navigating many of the waters that you describe. Retirement, like anything else, has its own unique challenges.
I may very well get a part-time job at some point in my journey. I absolutely reserve the right to do so if I wish. However, I will share that I have quickly grown to cherish the time freedom that my early retirement has afforded me. At this point, I am reluctant to take on anything that may hinder my joyous, largely unbridled time freedom.
Spot on!
I enjoyed the article. On creating incentives for seniors to keep working, in addition to benefits of increased revenue from their taxes, I’d suggest also some decreases in Medicare expenses and other less quantifiable benefits from more seniors staying healthier, more connected and more engaged.
Great article, Jonathan—as I knew it would be. You addressed the FIRE/ICE tension with balance and nuance. I think all HumbleDollar readers should be thankful you lean at least a bit toward ICE, else we would not be reading this article!
Thanks, Ken — and thanks for inspiring me to write the article.