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Last summer, my husband Jonathan and I were discussing home maintenance projects that we should complete sooner rather than later, given his terminal cancer diagnosis. The first project was an HVAC system checkup. That led to the installation of an air-filtration system to minimize dust, mold and other allergens—a system we had discussed installing at some point down the road.
The second project was the installation of a new hot water tank, the need for which was brought to our attention when the plumber visited us for a water temperature issue. After discussing our options with the plumber, Jonathan and I decided that a 40-gallon tank would fit our needs, since it is only the two of us in our home taking showers.
Fast forward a couple of months to early fall, when Jonathan pushed for—and I reluctantly agreed to—an extensive bathroom renovation. Part of the renovation included the installation of a soaking tub, a feature that I hope to use frequently. After the renovation was completed, we soon learned that the presumed 40-gallon water tank we’d installed is actually 35 gallons, and that the correct-sized water tank for the new tub should be at least 50 gallons.
What followed were some heated discussions about replacing the newly installed water tank. I suggested we bite the bullet and install the correct-sized tank for the new tub and think of it has an added renovation cost. The smaller tank would be a welcomed donation to the city’s Habitat for Humanity operation. Jonathan adamantly refuses to replace the new water tank, even though it’s the wrong size for the new tub. His rationale: Why would we spend $1,000-plus to replace a brand-new water tank that’s working just fine and will likely continue to do so for many years?
HumbleDollar community, would you replace the replacement?
Thank you for your comments. There will indeed be more hot water in my future. The question now is from which source. Jonathan and I learned a lot from your suggestions and will meet with a plumber in the near future.
We had a jetted tub we didn’t use much because the water would cool off and we were always adding more hot. When we did a renovation last year, we got a tub with jets and an inline water heater (kicks in when the jets are on). It required another circuit be added, but it’s amazing how nice it is to turn on the jets and the water just stays warm. We use it a lot more now. There are also models that don’t have jets but have a heater added with low-volume water pump to keep the water warm.
Another alternative: Ask your plumber if there is a resale market for used water heaters. Also check the internet for buying or selling used heaters in your area. You could replace your unit with a used heater, which would also save money. The used market may be robust in a large city market.
I recently built a new house in Houston, which has different hot water requirements than Philadelphia. In the summer months, there is no cold water. I installed a tankless gas water heater outside the house and of course, the small heating tank froze and burst before we even occupied the house. Most heating units are installed in the attic in our area. This may seem incredibly stupid to some, but just requires proper monitoring and maintenance. I attempted to relocate the heater to inside the house, but rerouting the gas line proved problematic. The electric version drew 117 amps when heating which clashed with the solar panel / battery system I also had in place. I settled on the outside location with a gas unit. It was not chosen to minimize total cost, but my monthly utility bills are lower.
I’m a cheapskate like Jon. Most of the suggestions listed will cost quite a bit. I’m a retired builder, remodeler and building inspector since 1981.
I would either:
This is an easy one, Elaine. We, too, have a large tub and a gas water heater that is a bit too small. Luckily, you can install a small tankless unit that specifically delivers hot water to your tub. In our case, we chose to make the smaller unit provide hot water to our whole bathroom (no waiting for hot water!).
I think it depends on how efficient (or not) the 40 gallon tank is supplying your new soaking tub with water. If it works, don’t break it. If it doesn’t work, donate it and get the right sized tank. (by Mel’s wife)
Install an additional small water heater. Twenty gallons should do the trick. Why take out a perfectly good heater? What you need is extra capacity, so add that.
That was what I was going to suggest. Great minds think alike😉
I would replace it with a tankless system. We love ours! When we’re not using it the energy consumption is zero. If correctly sized for the number of outlets that may be running simultaneously it is inexhaustible.
As for the comment that “tankless water heating systems use more energy than a tank system” the US Dept of Energy says
One caveat is that a tankless water system should be flushed annually to clean any deposits and prevent rust. We bought a flushing kit and do it ourselves but you might want to get a few estimates from plumbers so you know the costs if you’d prefer to have someone else do it.
We see swings in our portfolios of much more than a thousand dollars almost every day. It is funny that we often get sticky about sums that are much less – like gasoline prices and take-out coffee, for example. For most of us, the cost of replacing a water heater is not really material in the long run.
Jonathan isn’t going to be the one suffering (and cursing) every few days from a half-filled soaking tub that starts spitting out lukewarm water. Elaine is. She should have the tie-breaker vote in this controversy. Treat the too-small water heater as a sunk cost. Then spend the money on a new one. And Jonathan, capitulate with a smile and say something nice to Elaine. She’ll remember it – especially every time she tries to take a soak – and she’ll also tell a lot of good stories about you. (If you don’t give in, you won’t want to know what she’ll remember every time she turns on the faucet…)
Ah, yes, my adult sons seem to be taken with the opportunities to tease us about our meaningless frugality. But we got this shirt I’m wearing for only $10 at the thrift store….
Actually, the difficulty of conceptualizing large numbers is real, and this is a more pleasant way to experience the problem than many. When my investor father-in-law was dealing with dementia, he still frequently asked about his money. I would tell him, “Today you can buy five cars,” or “It was a bad day today. You might need to sell the car.” He liked those answers better than most.
Hey, Jonathan, today you can buy 20 water heaters ;-).
I’m betting that the soaking tub and install was way more than $1,000, if you don’t install the water heater, you have include the basically total loss on that end.
I also agree with others here that a tankless unit ought to be considered.
A lukewarm bath would ruin my day!
#TeamElaine
After I moved out of a 2nd floor condo I owned and then rented out, the hot water heater leaked damaging both my condo and the condo below. That cost big bucks and lots of good will. In our current home, our hot water heater is in the garage. We also have some items stored there on the floor. One day we come from a trip and the hot water tank had leaked all over the garage and damaged some items. Long story short: After some research, we bought a tankless system that heats water on demand. Sure it takes a minute longer in some spots in the house to deliver hot water but the peace of mind is well worth it. I’d suggest taking advantage of the opportunity to go tankless for long term assurance. I’m certain Jonathan will see this makes sense. 🙂 Nice to hear from you Elaine. My wife Ellen is a great influencer too. 🙂
Good hot water heaters last about 20 years if you yearly drain about 2 or 3 gallons of water. I replace mine every 18 years; don’t want a catastrophic leak. Whole house air conditioning units last about 20 years also. I replace mine at 18 years during the winter; don’t want a summertime failure when air conditioning companies are sometimes backed up for 3 weeks. And BTW, water heater’s and air conditioner’s technology gets better and better so it makes financial sense – your utility bills get lower with newer products.
The idiots who built my last house put the water tank in the attic. When it died the off switch on the tank didn’t work…. I had the replacement installed in the crawl space.
Mine is in the attic too. To replace, I will have to call a plumber because I couldn’t get the old one Tuen and new one up by myself. A plumber saw it while I was having work done and he wasn’t concerned about I changing it.
Turned out it was impossible to get the original tank out of the attic. The builders must have installed it before finishing the attic. No way I was going to do it myself!
Also on This Old House I have seen plumbers install a pan below water heaters and clothes washers with an alarm and an automatic water shut off.
Our condo goes one better. We have a pan, but it also drains directly out to the sewer just like a sink so even the pan can’t overflow.
Dick – Our community doesn’t allow overflow water like that to enter the sewer directly. Mine is directed outside the house, to the ground.
During a renovation that relocated our laundry room, I had the plumbers install a pan beneath the washing machine and plumb a drain to capture accidental overflow or leakage.
This is not hard. If turning up the thermostat on the current heater doesn’t do the trick, get the new one. Happy wife, happy life.
Elaine, I’m not defending Jonathan, he can do that well enough on his own. But I suggest you pause to see how the current situation works out. When my wife and I remodeled years ago, one of us wanted a large tub with a whirlpool feature, which came with a price to match it’s size. The other predicted the tub would never get used. The first party won the argument, and the second turned out to be wrong–outside of bathing our young daughter, the tub has been used four, maybe five times in twenty years. Why don’t you wait to see how the current water heater works out? If you’re dissatisfied, a plumber will be pleased to remedy the situation.
When we moved into our new condo in 2019, one of the features I was most excited about was the huge soaking tub in the master bathroom. I thought about that tub for months as the condo was being built. I bought a new waterproof Kindle reader. When we moved in, I immediately had a handyman come install a grab bar, which is needed to climb into and out of the deep tub (I’m short), and for Christmas, I had everyone get me cool bath accessories, bath bombs, etc.
I was READY.
I’ve taken one(1) bath in it. Turns out it takes forever to fill the tub and I just get impatient with the process. I’d rather have a huge, oversized shower and no tub if I could choose. 😂
Were planning a little remodel at that end of the house. Tub out, large shower in.
She’s likely been using it since they moved back in & found it to be unsatisfactory, hence this post.
I am struggling with the thinking involved around spending significant sums for a full bathroom remodel, only to then draw a hard line in the sand on upgrading the water heater to fully fill a soaking tub with sufficient hot water. The bathroom upgrade decision was made later, independent of the earlier water heater purchase. Situations change.
I’ve spent more money on lesser items in an effort to make my spouse happy. My wife’s new iPhone (replacing her cracked screen / slow-running 2-year old model) with all the the requisite upgrades cost more than $1,200 – but her demonstrated happiness with this new purchase is priceless.
One way or another, assure yourself enough hot water, Elaine (Sorry, Jonathan, if this leads to an early replacement.) I’m almost too frugal to replace the water heater at my tin can casita but it’s top of the list for my next project, as it’s only 19 gallons. Meanwhile I’ll wait for summer to get a long hot shower. I guess the person living in my ersatz fishing shack in 2011 didn’t take hot showers or baths?
BTW, I was recently told by a contractor for the gas company that tankless water heating systems use more energy than a tank system. This surprised me.
Elaine,
If you were a younger couple, still trying to establish a firm financial footing, I would probably agree with Jonathan. But you’re not. At this stage, in your lives, you’re financially secure. If a new water heater will brighten your day a little bit, while you both go through these dark times, I think it’s money well spent.
I’d try turning up the water heater a bit to see if that helps. If not, I humbly apologize to Jonathan for disagreeing with him but I’d go for a bigger water heater to get the best return on your investment (her enjoyment).
In my humble opinion, it needs to be made right, so Elaine can take the kind of baths she wants to take. She stated above that this was something she was looking forward to, so it’s important to her. If she likes soaking baths, an insufficient water level doesn’t accomplish it, there’s no enjoyment in it. That’s what she likes to do to relax. When I was a member of a gym in another city, it had a hot tub next to the pool, it was a very enjoyable experience being covered by hot bubbling water, but it wouldn’t have been if I wasn’t covered by the water, I wouldn’t even have bothered getting in. J. you maybe running roughshod over your wife’s feelings. If someone bought you a bike & it only went halfway up the hill, would you stick with it or spend the extra 1 to 2k to get a fully functional one you would enjoy. Often people do a renovation & unfortunately have to spend thousands more correcting something to make it right. In this case, it’s maybe 1 or 2k, you will move on from it, you’ll forget about it after a few months, plus you’ll make more money in the stock market over time. Making it right shows Elaine that you value her & your relationship over money, not making it right, may cause her to become resentful & may cause a rift in your relationship.
This was fun Elaine. Be sure to let us know when Jonathan capitulates.
I’m with Jonathan, frugal me would hate to replace it.
Jonathan: Happy wife, Happy life.
Anyone want to consider starting a GoFundMe for the hot water tank for Elaine ? 😉
Curious, were you able to claim a tax credit (state and/or Fed) for installing a high efficiency model water heater?
one way or another, in order to get the full enjoyment of your soaker tub you should either replace the existing water heater, or add a supplementary one. While you may not want to part with the extra money (and in the context of what it costs to remodel a bathroom it’s not that large in my opinion), as part of a major bathroom remodel, it is well worth it. I would not look back. The old water heater is just a sunk cost.
No need to replace. Just install a second water heater: put them side by side. Sometimes investing means looking for a third option.
Lovely to see you posting here, Elaine. I grew up in England, and have always found American bath tubs too small. I rarely used the whirlpool tub in my house because I couldn’t get all of me under water at the same time. The point of a soaking tub is to soak all of you, so I would be upset if I couldn’t fill it all the way. I like the suggestion of an additional in-line water heater, but I might also look at what percentage of the cost of the remodel is represented by the cost of a new water tank.
Replace the tank. With time, the $$$ spent will come back to you in portfolio investment returns.
Since the soaking tub is fairly useless without the bigger heater, you need to get a new one. Jonathan can add the smaller one to his list of financial mistakes.
A year after we replaced the HVAC. system we decided on a large addition. It turned out the heating and AC were not large enough to handle the added space. So, we could just leave it and hope for the best or put in all new HVAC and do it right.
Guess which option Connie insisted on?
We tried to give the one year old furnace and AC to Habitat for Humanity. They didn’t want it, they only wanted “new” stuff.
When we built our retirement house in 2016 we had an AC coil installed so the furnace was AC ready. Fast forward to last spring. We decided it was time to add the AC because my 102 1/2 mother in law was moving in with us. We had several quotes and all the HVAC guys stated that they would have mounted a larger tonnage coil, but we might get away with it. We bit the bulletin and installed a larger coil because we didn’t want to take the chance that the system was under sized. After all the summers are not getting any cooler. I was furious at our builder …again. In 2020 we had to make an insurance claim for 20K of rot under the slider to the deck because they didn’t seal the pan underneath with 50 cents of caulking (like it said on the installation instructions still attached to the door behind the trim boards.
As John Yeigh mentions, be sure to check the temperature setting on the tank before you replace it. In some states, the temperature has to be set by the plumber at a lowest ‘safe’ level. It may also be worth looking at the bath fixture itself. Some bath fixtures come equipped with ‘anti-scald’ valves that can be adjusted.
Many years ago I had a bathroom remodeled. The shower and tub hardware was changed out (but I kept my existing hot water tank). When the remodel was complete, I took my first bath and couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t get the water to be hot enough–I like a hot bath. Before the remodel, I had no trouble getting the water hot enough for my liking.
I called the plumber the next day and he explained that the new fixture had an anti-scald device installed on it that could be adjusted. He also told me he was prevented (by law), from adjusting it for me. He advised me to do some online research and figure out how to adjust it myself. I was able to find the information and adjust the device that was located within the fixture. Problem solved.
After a similar big project two years ago, finishing my basement and adding a full bathroom (with a shower, but no tub), I learned that when the water tank was set at a safe temperature for the upstairs shower, it was too cool for comfort in the downstairs one. Since there are no small children in the house, my grandson and I set the water temperature unsafely hot for upstairs, which I can adjust in my shower, obviously. Just have to remind upstairs guests to be very careful or to turn the tank temp down when we have guests. I like John Y’s suggestion to insulate the hot water pipe, which I’m going to try. Comfort in small things can add a lot to quality of life. It took me two years to replace my refrigerator after I could no longer adjust the freezer to keep ice cream soft enough to scoop (I tried many different suggestions). I had to keep ice cream in the basement freezer. And there was no ice maker. Even though I don’t eat that much ice cream, it’s now wonderful to be able to scoop and I just LOVE the sound of the ice dropping into the bucket.
First of all, thank you for this post. It’s probably my favorite forum post to date. With that said, you “reluctantly agreed to” the bathroom renovation. Imagine the time before the renovation when you were blissfully unaware of the soaking tub’s allure. Now have a conversation with this person in your mind, asking if $1K above the initial price is worth it.
If you still feel strongly that the tub is worth it, then perhaps it is. I don’t envy being in Jonathan’s position, however. I imagine I’d have a very hard time seeing my wife’s point of view in a similar situation!
I agree with Jonathan and not replace it.
Oh yeah, right…. I am not about to wander into a marital (spellcheck corrected that from “martial”) spat about money. Martial – “war-like” – is not too far off, however, in some marriages.
Inserting myself into a discussion between a long-time friend and mentor (albeit from afar) and his spouse strikes me as a terrible idea.
However, I do have a separate suggestion for both. Consider a BB-2000. You’ll have to “google” it. A life-changer that heats its own water. You need a separate circuit.
Hi Elaine. I’ve been looking at small mini-tank water heaters for our Master Bath. I like the idea of a “point-of-service” solution for an infrequent, supplement to this problem. It likely depends on the configuration of your bathroom, but many fit in a vanity. They are a fraction of the cost of a full size water heater. It might be worth a quote from your plumber
there are also inexpensive immersion heaters available. They might be worth a try to get a few more degrees.
Best, Rick
Elaine,
I’m sorry it came to this for you to join the Humble Dollar community, but considering Jonathan’s prognosis I can understand why you decided not to wait for Festivus to air your grievances. 😂
BTW if you do decide to replace the water heater, I’d recommend a Rinaii tankless water heater. Plus-once it heats up you have an endless supply of hot water. Minus-it wastes some water until you start getting hot water at the temperature you wish.
You could add a small tankless water heater just for the tub. This way you not wasting money on swapping out a brand new tank, you’re spending a few hundred dollars to make the love of your life happy.
Hi Elaine, pleased to see your name listed as author and hope your first post won’t be your last.
Regarding the hot water heater problem—it really boils down to personal preference. Are you willing to put up with the inconvenience of the smaller capacity water heater?
Or will this prove to be a constant source of irritation every time you run out of hot water.
And will Jonathan be in hot water if he doesn’t agree with your reasoning?
The engineer’s duct tape solution. Until you do replace the heater, you could temporarily turn up the temperature on the heater toward the scalding 145-150ish degree setting from the more normal 120-125ish degrees. Add in some cold water and this should fill the tub with typical 105 degree hot tub water. We regularly dial up our tank temperature whenever a gang is visiting in order to expand showering capacity.
Although a pain to run to the basement before every intended bath, it should only take 10 minutes to heat up. The only caveat is to remember to dial back the temps as all the tap waters will be scalding hot if not dialed back.
Another check that might help deliver hotter water just a little is to make sure your basement hot water pipes exiting from the tank are well-insulated. There can be a fair bit of heat loss in the initial runs of hot water pipes especially if they run halfway across the basement. Hot water pipe insulation at the tank exit is a generally good investment that should pay for itself over a few years.
Maybe insulation on my basement hot water pipe is what I need. My basement shower is further from the tank than my upstairs shower, which is almost directly above the tank. Thanks for a good idea, John.
That’s a dangerous game…
These are all good points but believe me when I say that if my wife got on an open forum to discuss our little arguments I will revert to an all-time classic for me – Happy Wife = Happy Life!
Jonathan is my personal finance hero, but I’m with you. So is my wife. We’d both replace the tank. This is our brand new custom bathroom. It’s going to have what it’s supposed to have.
I acknowledge that in his reply to Russ, Jonathan does make excellent points, so it’s not quite the no-brainer we found it to be initially. But even so we’d still replace.
I would …. overthink it. Sure, there is an impulse to “do it right”, and get the correct functional heater installed. And there is an impulse to be thrifty. Honestly, would depend on how flush I felt at the moment. With the market down a bit (sorry Bogleheads) I would likely give pause.
And so – I am of no help.
The engineer in me doesn’t have enough information. I’m unfamiliar with your thought process followed to install the soaking tub. Is this something that only you use, or do you both use it? What is the volume capacity of the soaking tub? Does it exceed 40 gallons? When is the soaking tub used with respect to other hot water activities? Is it possible to use the tub when not using hot water for the dishwasher or laundry? At this point I’m sorta on Jonathan’s side on this one unless there’s a tipping point that’s not clear to me. I’m sure you have the money to pay for the replacement, so it’s not Jonathan being a miser here.
That’s an interesting thought process. If the tub and the rest of the house are on different systems, then while the tub fills from the tank, someone could be bringing buckets of hot water from the kitchen 🙂
Lol.
There’s a concept in the accounting and finance world known as a sunk cost. This is a classic example of a sunk cost decision. The prior cost of the 40 gallon tank is irrelevant to the 50 gallon tank decision. Sorry Jon, let’s move forward with that larger tank. And Jon, if you’re not a fan, I’d also recommend listening to some of The Replacements music as well. A great alt rock band from the 1980’s.
It’s amazing how easy it is to spend other people’s money! The current tank works just fine. It’s simply that it doesn’t fill the new tub quite as much as Elaine would like before the hot water runs out. Would you ditch your brand-new car because the acceleration is a little less than you were hoping for? Would you sell your home because the kitchen is a tad smaller than you’d like?
If the current tank doesn’t fill the new tub with sufficiently hot water then it doesn’t work just fine for Elaine’s needs. I assume you know that the dollar amounts of your analogies greatly exceed the cost of a new tank.
I’m not trying to be pedantic here, but…if we’d just spent the cost of a new car, or a new house, (or a new bath remodel), and my wife wasn’t satisfied, and all it would take to fix that perception would be to spend another $1k…honestly, even cheap-skate me would see spending that as a no-brainer. I’ve long since learned around here, if the lady of the house says she don’t like it, I take her literally at her word– *she don’t like it*. Just a thought.
You sound like me at March town meeting.
You agreed to a soaking tub to make Elaine happy. Time to follow through and make it work and keep her happy.
The last time I kept Connie happy with a renovation $1,000 was a rounding error.
Dick, you’re such a sweetheart. We’ll replace the water tank as soon as your check arrives. Perhaps you could deliver it in your fancy new Mercedes.
Perception is everything, my new car cost less than most new full size pick-up trucks and many SUVs and a lot less than a custom dog hauler.
When exactly did you last purchase a custom dog hauler?
Never, but I read somewhere about a person who did.
And did they mention the exact cost of that custom dog hauler? You seem to know how much it was since your car cost, “a lot less”.
Well they implied they used the $125,000 windfall. I hope it wasn’t that.
Did they imply what percentage of that windfall they used to purchase the vehicle? All of it? 50% of it? Or was the $125K just a down payment and the total cost was north of $1 million?
Hint: Answer three is not correct.
The point is you don’t know. You have almost no information that would allow you to make a guess at the cost. So to say your vehicle cost ‘a lot less’ is pointless. And obnoxious.
Well, it’s my bad, but when someone writes:
“This time it took me two years to decide how to spend my fortune. ($125,000 windfall).
Ultimately, we settled upon a solution that combined a bit of all of our previous ideas. In May 2024, we purchased a cargo van and had it converted into a custom dog transport vehicle.”
It’s not far fetched to assume they did just that, spent their fortune.
Or perhaps just a fraction of their fortune…
Speaking of cars, I hopefully didn’t comment at any length here about the sudden new-driver-related demise two years ago of my maroon 2019 Kia Optima. I was able to replace it with an almost identical silver 2019 Kia Optima. They have the same manual, which doesn’t describe their minute differences, though I quickly found out on the first drive home: the replacement doesn’t have the same acceleration. In my case, it’s a plus because I often felt like I needed to pull back on the reins of the other car, whereas the replacement is more suitable for me.
Jonathan, it would KIIIIILLLL me to replace it, but, with the realization that 35 gallons wasn’t getting the job done, I’d bite the bullet and buy an adequate water heater.
And hey, as long as I’m spending your money, I think you should buy me a new corvette. My Equinox isn’t fast enough!
It’s all about the depth of water in a soaking tub. But yes, it is easy to spend other people’s money! 🙂
The concept of sunk cost may be applicable in this case.
https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/sunk-cost-fallacy/
Replace the tank, no question.
My question would actually be why a soaking tub?
Will it really be used? As you age will you be able to use it? Oh well, that decision is down the drain.
I’m guessing it’s less expensive to replace the tank than the tub anyway.
You could wait until you are in the tub and Jonathan wants a shower and only cold water pours out. That might get your point across.
Dick, you are just sooooo cruel.
A soaking tub sounds heavenly. I lived in Japan for a few years where an evening soak is part of the culture, and it didn’t take me long to understand why. I’m not a homeowner and have no plans to be, but if I was I would absolutely have one!
“an evening soak is part of the culture”. Think Roman baths (or Bath, England). Maybe instead of a hot water heater you could hire people to keep fires burning to heat water for the cauldarium ;->
I think I would – especially if I could donate it Habitat for Humanity. That would help if feel less wasteful or extravagant. Good luck with the decision!
This is what I think. Chris