FREE NEWSLETTER
Go to main Forum page »
I just realized the only time I see my money is when I withdraw from an ATM. Ye gads, my wealth accumulated over 70 years is all in cyberspace.
I am at the mercy of computer systems and the folks who run them – and maybe someone in a tiny village in Mongolia. Everything hinges on a programing language which are all Greek to me.
Even my last ATM attempt didn’t go well. There is only one branch of my bank on the Cape. I have to drive twenty minutes to get there. I walked into the lobby and found the ATM out of order. A teller said the drive up was working so off I go only to find at the moment it only dispenses $100 bills. I go back to the lobby minutes later and they have closed. Tapping on the door I attract the teller who signals through the glass she can’t unlock the door effectively saying “tough luck take $100 bills if you want cash.”
I know my online IRA and brokerage accounts say I own shares of stock, and mutual funds, but I don’t have any certificates, I have no proof. My wealth could go poof with a systems flaw.
I think I have cash in those accounts too. At least that’s what the website says. Where exactly is the Money Market? Have you ever visited?
Our several bank accounts are … where? Nowhere or somewhere…I hope. No passbook. If I lost my iPhone I’m broke because I can’t access my bank or investment firms app – or the ATM. Is my debit card proof of anything? I think not.
I have deeds, legal pieces of paper, showing I own my houses and cars, but not a visible “real” thing backing up all our investments. You can’t even get savings bonds to lock away in a safe deposit box anymore, instead you use Treasury Direct where your bonds are…
It seems wealth is nothing more than our ID, password and the last four digits of our social security number.
Wow, I’ve just barely recovered from having 90% of my retirement savings mailed in paper checks by Fidelity to my home (and dropped outside my front door by UPS). As of today, it’s finally all in my Schwab IRA. Or so they say.
When I’m awake at 3 a.m. worrying about this, I’ll think of you, Dick! 😂😬
I am not worry about thing I can not control. I keep some small amount of cash and food / water that I can survive for a week. Being a patient of transplant, I kept 4-6 months of medications since most of them are imported after having trouble getting medications during pandemic. To get a small bill, maybe you should try to withdraw $80 multiple times.
I hate to ask this dumb question, but will anyway. You were already in the lobby of the bank when you realized the ATM wasn’t operating, why didn’t you just go over to the teller window and withdraw some money? I think the teller had the last laugh knowing he/she could have helped you, but instead sent you back outside at closing time.
You have mentioned being a Fidelity customer. Why not get their credit card and pay no fees anywhere at an ATM? Have never heard of an ATM machine that only dispenses $100 bills.
I’ve noticed that many of the local ATMs dispense $100 and $50 bills by default. Some machine allow you to elect your denomination. The large bill dispensing was a surprise to me about a year ago. My bank allows you to withdrawal from a teller using a debit card.
I certainly would not drive 20 minutes to get anything less than $100 from an ATM at a bank getting ready to close, especially in an area where everything is expensive if you want to use cash.
The ATM is on the Cape where only the Rich people live.
This post and some of the comments made me think of a 30 year-old Tom Clancy novel, Debt of Honor. In the novel the villain fund the creation o a virus that attacks the stock market software, which prevents the storage of any trade occuring after noon on a certain Friday. As I recall Jack Ryan engineers a simple, yet effective solution – a do-over. They ignore any transaction after noon on the day of the attack and start from the last documented position.
My brother worked in the disaster recovery business. His firm provided backup data storage and computer processing of critical data systems, like hospitals, city infrastructure, and also retail online businesses. Their systems were physically separate from the businesses they served, and had impressive infrastructure resiliency. I recall him being called in late at night a few days before Christmas. A blizzard in the midwest had shutdown the online store of a major retailer. They had the backup online store up and running within an hour.
The government space systems I worked on had disaster recovery plans, with physically separated backup ground control stations, and data storage facilities. These facilities had backup infrastructure systems. We used to practice disaster recovery yearly – including operators jumping in cars and driving several hours to the backup site.
I was involved in a number of anomalies to satellites in my career, some mission critical. I was always impressed by the dedication and creativity that the teams exhibited, working long hours under tremendous pressure to fix the problem. I saw the same dedication in my 7-month pregnant wife and her team, working 24 hour shifts to staff a major hospital’s critical care unit during a blizzard in 1983.
Most of us aren’t aware of the lengths that businesses and agencies go to provide resilience. It’s certainly not perfect, but it is useful to know that these efforts are made. And that good people step up in bad times.
Thanks Rick. I was beginning to worry readers thought the post was about ATMs and keeping cash.
I’m reasonably confident that things will eventually get sorted out if there’s a serious issue with the electronic systems at a major investment house. But I am less certain how quickly it would be resolved since their total assets measure in the trillions of dollars. So having no access to all my funds for possibly several weeks (even months) could be a serious problem. That’s why I have my investments spread across three major brokerage houses. I’m just not comfortable having all my eggs in one basket.
I keep some cash on hand too … just in case.
Another Old IT guy.
Yep, good idea. I remember being on a road trip last spring and pulling into a small restaurant that only took cash because there was literally no cell service/internet in that tiny town. I was glad I had some cash on me. Gene
Think about this too much and you’ll convert all your investments into gold, silver, and the like. I’ve seen people go down that path.
Or shotgun shells…..
They’re both symbolic systems of representing value thru no-value markers. The paper has no real value.
The paper is merely a remnant of your childhood, it’s a reflection of a period in the past that you cherished not some repository of real value.
Electronic has replaced paper because it’s better at the things that caused paper to replace hard currency. Ease of movement and transfer, ease of safeguarding.
Look on the bright side, representational currency has been central to elevating billions out of poverty, well worth any angst people may feel about it.
It’s not about the relative value of anything, it’s about documentation of whatever value you have. If I have three mutual funds in my brokerage account, what proof do I have that I own those investments other than what is shown in the accounts system? Should there be a catastrophic system failure, what is my backup proof for the funds. A dollar may not be worth a dollar, but that bill demonstrates I have the value whatever it may be.
The documentation is pretty much the same, they’ve just changed delivery method.
In the past if you lost your document did you lose your account? No, so the docs had no real authority.
True. The validity of your deed and many other important paper documents depends on their verification which is probably computerized.
I don’t think that is actually true. My will, trust and other estate papers are not computerized and they are certainly valid.
My deed may be entered into a data base for record keeping but the paper version is valid.
There is a subtle but important difference with deeds. In NJ a paper deed that has been signed and notarized is valid, but it must be recorded by the county to be enforceable and fully transferable. Recording a deed protects your property claim. In Nj, the first deed recorded has priority. I’ve had the opportunity to learn this because we are dealing with deed issues in our community as we transition an old electrical distribution system to a new modern system. The utility is asking for homeowners to provide deeds, but legal counsel recommended they obtain the recorded versions from the county
This comment/discussion is one of the most valuable hidden features of Humble Dollar – info/details regarding financial activity.
Recently we began building an addition to my daughter’s home. It is the potential of a late in life mother-in-law (etc.) apartment or merely an alternative investment of her inheritance.
My youngish adult children have been learning some valuable lessons about owning property. So much information kind of creeps into our brains as we live life. But this project has thrown them into the pool of learning about things like equity/escrow/property taxes/insurance/builders insurance, etc.
I don’t even know how the deed is going to need to be changed to reflect the addition. But that’s their problem.
It’s always about the record keeping. If your deed got incinerated in a fire you don’t suddenly lose your house.
100% in the 80s I went to the NYC board of health to get copies of my birth certificates. It was all computerized by then. No clerks rummaging through files.
Gosh, I hope you know that you can actually go to any ATM, at any location and get some cash. You don’t have to go to your own bank. All you have to do is to be willing to part with a few bucks in the form of a fee. Since I bank with Schwab, they will even pay me back for the fees.
It has been noted that Americans are generally losing faith in religion, attendance continues to decline. Many people lack faith that our government is actually beneficial. As evidenced by some folk, there is a lack of faith in science and medicine. I am therefore not surprised that you doubt your own faith in our system of finance. With fiat money that actually has no intrinsic value, and things like crypto, meme stocks, there is much to doubt.
But, even if you had a million dollars in paper currency, what would you have even then, except a few pounds of paper?
Perhaps, as a few physicists have speculated recently, our universe exists inside of a gigantic Black Hole. ( You can check this out on YouTube.) Is anything really real these days?
Gee, I’m not that old, but why should I pay a fee to get my own money? Yesterday I was in a restaurant that was cash only? Yup, they conveniently had an ATM too. The guy in front of me in line didn’t have cash so it cost him $4.00 to get $20. And why cash only? According to the IRS the largest source of lost revenue is small businesses that deal in cash transactions. Imagine that?
You wrote that you drive 20 minutes to use your bank. I assume that is each way. At 30 mph average, that’s a 20 mile round trip. The 2025 IRS mileage rate is $0.70 per mile. So the trip costs you about $14. If there were a closer bank that charged $4 per transaction, it would still be a better deal.
And I’m sure you know that ATMs are never free. Their cost is built into the banks’s business model, likely in lower interest rates on savings and checking accounts.
Richard, I know your love your Fidelity brokerage account (for good reason, I have one too). All you need is to get their debit card and attach it to the Cash Management area (you can limit the funds available as you choose). Then you can use any ATM (there may be some rare exceptions), and Fidelity will reimburse the ATM fee (usually the same day). I also use Cash Management to autopay my mortgage and any bills that I cannot charge to credit cards without incurring a fee. This is a great perk that Fidelity offers that you are missing out on.
You can even get cash (foreign cash, that is) from ATMs in foreign countries. Capital One used to refund those fees, too. But if I actually want cash, like maybe once a year, I go into the bank so I can get the exact denominations I want.
Used to do it all the time. I was told the ATMs had the best exchange rate too.
Just don’t fall for the Dynamic Currency Conversion scam. Always, always get and pay in the local currency.
Good post Richard, I have the same concerns. That’s why I keep all my money hidden in the basement, under the steps in the empty box from my big screen Samsung TV that I have written “life savings” on with an over-sized magic marker.
What could possibly go wrong down there?
Just kidding. I’m not so stupid to tell you where I really hid the box. Besides, we don’t even have a basement…. It’s in the attic! DUH!
ROFL. Dan, I was thinking of going out and buying a mattress that I could stuff all my money under, after reading this post. I don’t think I could use the mattress I sleep on now as it may make it uncomfortable for sleeping . 🤷🏻♂️
Can’t remember the last time I took cash out of a ATM. Certainly a couple of years. But then if you’re not facilitating tax dodging or other criminality by paying for services or goods cash in hand there is no real need.
Occasionally get cashback at a supermarket till.
Perversely carry more local currency cash when I’m travelling but I think that’s the “far from home” factor of what ifs holds get put on cards etc for unusual spend patterns etc.
Can probably survive a week or so at home with cash I have but doubt in the event of an e-meltdown EPOS equipment will be able to handle payments etc so no gas, no groceries. I figure society would be looting within days.
money held in accounts is that just paper statement and that is why I carry $300 in my pocket just in case the Cyber World has a melt down……..I feel I can weather the storm until the Nerds fix what ever code they need…..the world did not end on Y2K so I think they have a handle on it that is why I still have a flip phone…….KISS
Let’s just hope it can be fixed and the guy in Mongolia is not smarter than the nerds.
Yup. I have the same concerns. I get (pay for) paper statements from major accounts just to have something physical. I doubt the would be of any real use if something made all the bits that represent my “money” go poof.
I do keep a small amount of cash “just in case” all the computers go haywire for the short term.
What are the alternatives?
Keeping a week or 2 of emergency cash is good practice. It’s the power grid not the computer systems that present the biggest risk.
Paper currency tho doesn’t necessarily help. How many retailers can actually do business without their computer systems, I know gas stations can, but can’t tell you the last time I was in a grocery store that didn’t use scanners.
I’m guessing there are no alternatives at this point. We are at the mercy of security experts. Let’s hope there are backup after backup systems 🙄
I retired from 20 years in Cyber security in part because I perceived defense to be an unwinnable game. Fingers crossed :-/