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The recent discussion about withdrawal rates – 4% and all that – got me thinking about the importance and confusion surrounding that decision. I don’t personally have to deal with it and gladly so because I’m sure I would not handle it well. My withdrawals are those required by RMDs.
The current RMD table is based on the 2012 Individual Annuity Mortality (IAM). The table is more generous than a “single life” actuarial table. It is calculated using the Joint Life and Last Survivor expectancy for an individual and a hypothetical beneficiary who is exactly 10 years younger. This results in a smaller required withdrawal.
73- 3.77%
75- 4.07%
80 – 4.95%
85 – 6.25%
90 – 8.25%
95- 11.24%
100 – 15.63%
Instead of wrestling with a withdrawal rate, why not base retirement income planning on the RMD table? For most average retirements it hovers in the 4% range anyway. RMDs will never cause you to hit zero $.
However, there is still the market risk, which based on reading HD post by HD investors, can be managed to some extent by investment choices. Or, using in-kind transfers may help too by avoiding selling in a down market.
Of course, there is no requirement to spend the entire RMD if it is more than needed. Take the cash, pay the taxes, and immediately move the remaining amount into a taxable brokerage account. I use QCDs for a portion of my RMD, give a portion to each of our children and reinvest the balance into a money market fund (SPAXX) with Fidelity to add to cash reserves.
As I said, I am not faced with the withdrawal decision or with relying on investments for living expenses so I am not in a position to give advice. I’m just thinking what I might do if faced with the decisions most people must deal with given I like to keep things simple. My rollover IRA has more than doubled in value since taking my first RMD in 2014 – the luck of the markets, surely not my investing skills.
Christine Benz covered this strategy.
https://www.morningstar.com/retirement/should-your-retirement-withdrawals-mirror-required-minimum-distributions
Jonathan covered that here:
What Withdrawal Rate? – HumbleDollar
My spouse is younger than I am and is expected to outlive me. I have always used her age when running Monte Carlo simulations. As for RMDs I simply calculate using the IRS table and withdraw an amount sufficient to meet the requirement. After that, any additional withdrawal is optional. It has been noted at HD that it is not necessary to spend RMDs and we don’t. Funds are put into a high yield savings account and during the year any remainder is transferred to a brokerage account and invested.
We use Mone Carlo simulations and Quicken’s Lifetime Planner to determine the upper bound of long-term annual withdrawals.
Several years ago a medical issue forced a relocation and additional spending. I didn’t withdraw from the traditional accounts above the RMD. Instead I pulled funds from a Roth-IRA. There are pros and cons about doing this, but I always viewed our Roths as a flexible option. I attempt to keep our effective tax rate at 7%. Federal, state and Real Estate taxes are always a consideration for us.
The Society of Actuaries has a paper discussing the topic.
At least I know I wasn’t totally off the wall exploring this option. If nothing else, it’s confirmed to be the easiest even if it’s not for everyone.
It depends on how much you have invested and how much you want or need to spend. If the RMD exceeds your spending, that’s what you withdraw. If your spending wants or needs exceed the RMD, that’s what you withdraw.
But don’t you balance the total investments and spending needs so that there can be a more or less steady withdrawal percentage?
Yes.
Basically, I’m saying that the RMD is the floor of the percentage you need to withdraw, but you can go up from there depending on your wealth and spending needs.
But does it have to be constant, no. Some years you will need a roof repair, want that new BMW you don’t really need, or have a big medical expense.
That’s a point I can’t understand. My income is fixed although a pension not a withdrawal, but same concept.
From the constant income I set aside amounts for designated spending into separate accounts that accrue over time. That includes a fund for emergency spending and one for travel.
If I had to use withdrawals, I would be afraid to break the constant percentage for fear of accelerating the depletion.
“If I had to use withdrawals, I would be afraid to break the constant percentage for fear of accelerating the depletion.”
Dick,
You have to understand that a most retirees do not have so much income they can save some of it like you. However I’m sure there are plenty of retirees who have to take more than their RMDs to make ends meet but still do well in retirement.
I think you may simply have different notions of withdrawals. If you have an emergency it wouldn’t be wrong to say that you had to withdraw monet from your emergency fund. And if you need to replenish your emergency fund you will need to “withdraw” funds from elsewhere.
True, but if I was living off of assets, I would have two pools of money. One would be the money I live off day to day and the other for none routine expenses.
I feel more comfortable when isolate funds.
There is no perfect method, and the 4% rule appears solid overall. If you can, have enough cash to insure you do not have to sell your stocks, while markets are down. In my world, enough cash/bonds is 5 to 10 years worth. If you are of age, you will have to take your RMD, reinvest as much as you can. Best to all.
Adding…
that if you are withdrawing ~4% per year let’s say, and you are setting aside 5 to 10 years of cash/bonds, you have an AA of 80/20 for the “5-yr safe money portfolio” and an AA of 60/40 for the “10-yr safe money portfolio”…right?
We’ve been using our RMDs as our primary withdrawal criteria for almost seven years now (spouse having started at age 70). Even before, I used the 4% rule as a rough estimate of a safe withdrawal/spending level. In reality, we spent what we wanted to spend (within reason) and we checked the withdrawal rate afterwards (although we did keep tabs on our guardrail). This process was made more palatable since we partially annuitized our portfolio to create our own self-funded pension. That annuity income plus my SS benefit (not counting spouse’s SS benefit) covered our essential expenses. That would then leave her SS benefit plus 4% or the RMD to be used for discretionary spending. Additionally, I used a Monte Carlo simulation from 2016 (the third full year after I retired and reached my FRA) that projected our annual portfolio balances to the end of our planning period. Each year I update those projections with current data (portfolio balance and expense actuals) to verify if the original 2016 projections are still accurate. The variations over the past 10 years have been generally less than 10% so I continue to use those projected balances as my guardrail. If I stick to those projections, it will leave a minimum of five years of LTC coverage (in the T-IRA) or a substantial legacy if not used. Additionally, this still leaves the Roth assets and home equity as a further backup.
To address potential market volatility when withdrawing RMDs, we have each been using a rolling five-year fixed-income ladder where each ladder rung satisfies our projected RMDs. We previously went through a six-year Roth conversion plan when TCJA became effective. That plan, which was completed in 2022, reduced our projected RMD by 40%. Today, roughly 50% of our portfolio is tax-deferred. As such, we can take twice our RMD (the effect of having only a tax-deferred IRA) and still see our portfolio balance continue to increase over the long term.
For a surviving spouse, we can also use the revised RMD calculation (allowed by Secure Act 2.0) to further reduce the RMDs by applying the “excess” annuity payout against the (traditional) RMD as computed using the end-of-year non-annuitized T-IRA balance. The nominal 4% RMD, for us, then drops to roughly 2.4% (due to applying the “excess” annuity payout). That further translates to roughly withdrawing 1.2% of the portfolio (since half is T-IRA). Additional income needs can then come from the Roth assets with no tax consequences. This strategy will mitigate the widower’s tax penalty and avoid IRMAA premiums for the surviving spouse.
Another interesting observation (using Boldin’s tool) was that without any further Roth conversions, the Roth allocation grows from the current 50% to 64% over the next 15 years. I believe this is happening since our Roth holds are growth equities, while the T-IRA is mostly fixed-income. Almost all withdrawal are from the T-IRA as well. Alternatively, the T-IRA decreases from 50% to 36%. While not quite in step with the Roth percentage increase as one ages, the reduction in T-IRA helps to offset some of that percentage increase.
Take the cash, pay the taxes, and immediately move the remaining amount into a taxable brokerage account.
That’s the exact advice I give to my peers who, for some reason, freak out over RMDs.
This would only work if you are RMD age already. A person who is 60 years old today doesn’t have an RMD for another 15 years at age 75.
At age 60 when contemplating withdrawals I used a Monde Carlo simulator. Firecalc.com allows entering the portfolio amount, the starting withdrawal amount and the number of years. It adjusts spending amount each year, so purchasing power is preserved.
For example, anticipating a starting withdrawal at age 60, if I entered $750,000 portfolio, 40 years duration (to age 100) and $30,000 per year “ the portfolio was depleted before the end of the 40 years. FIRECalc found that 16 cycles failed, for a success rate of 86.1%.” It also provides a range of portfolio balances at the end of 40 years.
Reducing the initial withdrawal to $25,000 “FIRECalc found that 0 cycles failed, for a success rate of 100.0%…The lowest and highest portfolio balance at the end of your retirement was $10,396 to $10,415,867, with an average at the end of $2,751,223.”
The calculator allows adjustments to the portfolio composition.
This may be helpful.
https://robberger.com/spend-safely-in-retirement-strategy/
Thank you! I follow Rob Berger on You Tube. He also did a video on using the RMD distribution method.
But they could use the initial RMD percentage until they reach the next age level or even start at 4% until higher ages are reached.
For people who retire at 60 or before it’s a whole different game I suspect.
See above reply.
I suspect my withdrawal strategy will pretty much follow the scenario you outline here. I’ve just taken my first RMDs at the end of 2025, so it may take a year or two to be sure, but I don’t anticipate “needing” to take more than the IRS required amounts out each year. And as you note, one does not necessarily have to spend what comes out.
PS: I’m curious why you don’t use FZDXX (3.52) instead of SPAXX (3.35), or even VMFXX (3.64). There is a higher bar to meet to establish the FZDXX position, but then you do not have to maintain that level of funding in the account.
When I consolidated with Fidelity that’s just where cash ended up. No other reason. If you are a regular HD reader, you probably know I’m not a detail person. It never occurred to me to look around 🤷🏼♂️
You only have to look within your account, so that makes it an easy fix. If you’re linked with a Vanguard account, that option, too, is super easy.
He should be using VUSXX, which for his state the dividends are tax exempt.
The Treasury fund available at Fidelity is FZFXX. Dick, go to Positions in your taxable account, click on Cash, then Change Core Position.
I did that. Both funds are paying the same interest rate 3.34%
Yes, but one is state tax free and the other is not.
Well, I’m in FL, so that’s not on my radar.
It’s certainly a different strategy. Effectively letting the tax man be your financial planner 😂 I suppose the only catch is that the RMD table doesn’t care about your actual spending needs or what the market did yesterday. It solves the “math” of not hitting zero, but I’d be worried about “dollar cost ravaging.” If the market drops 20% and the RMD forces a sale anyway, aren’t you effectively locking in those losses and leaving the portfolio with less fuel to recover when the market eventually turns around?
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No. Nothing in the tax law says you hae to spend the full RMD. It’s just the amount you withdraw, and in my case, place in my taxable investment account. I use an “in kind” transfer so I have the same investments.
To prevent being a forced seller in the event of a 20% loss, I have a cushion of 2 years expected withdrawals in money market funds. Does that bring down my returns, yes. but it gives me substantial peace of mind.
“the market drops 20% and the RMD forces a sale anyway, aren’t you effectively locking in those losses”
This is why investors should have some cash 1-2 years of necessary withdrawls to meet one’s budget or a percentage of your portfolio in cash (us about 10% of our portfolio), and bonds either 8-9 years (us about 45% the vast majority in short term bonds/TIPS).
When the market is down (rarely for more than 10 years) you withdraw first from your cash, then bonds). This is also why it is better to have distinct funds to effectuate RMDS withdrawls rather than a target date fund where you are forced into selling both stocks and bonds.
Christine Benz at Morningstar suggests a “bucket approach” for retirees and has written extensively about this.
“The buckets are organized as follows:
Bucket 1: Six months’ to two years’ worth of living expenses—not covered by Social Security—are housed in cash instruments.
Bucket 2: Another 8-10 years’ worth of living expenses are housed in bonds.
Bucket 3: The remainder of the portfolio is invested in stocks and a high-risk bond fund.
Income and rebalancing proceeds from Buckets 2 and 3 are used to replenish Bucket 1 as it becomes depleted.”
Benz also suggests using a withdrawal strategy incorporating “guard rails” to modify the 4% rule.
Thanks Norm,
I am aware of Christine’s guidance. I have been reading he columns for probably a decade now. At this point I’m maintaining a 45/45/10 portfolio until we turn 70 and claim Social Security. At that point I will switch to the pure bucket approach. Over the past 10 years my current allocation has returned 8.6% per annum. I am very satisfied with this plan as we have been retired for six years while living off of 100% of our income coming from our portfolio. Because of the great market returns to date during our retirement our portfolio is currently at an all time high.
David, you’ve just about summed up my philosophy. Have you been spying on my investment statements?
If the market drops then the RMD dollar amount also drops. Plus instead of selling assets that have declined you can just transfer them to a taxable account, but of course you need cash from other sources to pay the taxes on the transferred assets.
A person using a more typical strategy say 4% would still be taking the original amount adjusted for inflation from depleted assets.
I think a key factor is that no matter how the withdrawals are taken, saving some of every withdrawal and building reserves for taxes, etc. it’s important. That or have adequate reserves outside tax qualified plans.
I anxiously await the first 🔻
😎
The worst case scenario would be when at the end of the calendar year the market is high, then the market sinks the next year. Your RMDs would be large but then you would have to withdraw from a significantly lower asset base. This was the scenario which occurred early in 2020 during COVID, and is why the government waived RMDS that year.
Hi David: I calculate the current year’s RMD around January 15th, when I receive the prior year-end balance statements for my 2 IRA accounts. I then withdraw slightly more than the amount required by RMD Table III for two reasons. First, to force myself to spend some retirement money as I’m a long time saver and not a spender. Second, I’m not going to live to “115 and over” on which Table III is based, so I withdraw a little more than Table III requires. To preserve the withdrawn RMD balance, it is deposited into a money market account then transferred monthly in equal amounts of RMD/12 into my checking account.
Taking the RMD in a lump sum early in the year avoids the the lower asset base risk you mention if the market sinks during the year. And I presently earn 3.7% interest on the withdrawn RMD funds during the year they are distributed monthly.
My accountant said that because of quirk in the law, taking a large $ amount at the end of the year and having that large $ amount withheld for Fed taxes is looked at by the IRS as having been evenly withheld throughout the year…so no penalty.
With your suggestion, when the account balance drops 15%, your spending also drops 15%. Although I don’t use the 4% SWR model myself, the whole point of the SWR regime is maintaining a consistent spending amount over a thirty-year term. Your initial first-year withdrawal is set, and that amount always increases by inflation regardless of your portfolio balance. With the RMD suggestion, you end up with a variable spending stream—which is the antithesis of what the 4% SWR is trying to achieve.
I think the misunderstanding is this: in a pure implementation of SWR, you don’t recalculate your yearly spending at the beginning of each year. You calculate it once at the beginning of retirement, and it’s set in stone thereafter. Each subsequent year, you simply adjust that original amount for inflation.
I don’t see an absolute relationship between withdrawals and spending. Withdrawals are your income. I would think you need to fit spending into your withdrawal strategy income just as you would fit spending into a salary.
If i did this i would say to myself i need a reliable income of $X and that income would provide a good cushion over actual necessity expenses just to be safe. And I would start retirement with a significant cash reserve beyond what assets provide the withdrawals.
I would also think to myself how much do a need to accumulate to make that happen considering SS or other guaranteed income. 4% or RMD% of what number?
I am a financial coward, I try and cover all basis. That’s why i didn’t retire until I met my 100% replacement goal especially given no COLA on the bulk of my income. I may have given up 5-10 years of retirement, but that’s the price of the financial security i need – which I acknowledge may well be beyond the norm.
I agree that withdrawal and spending are separate issues. If you’re spending less than your withdrawal amount, it could be a great opportunity to pull cash from your portfolio at favorable tax rates. You can stick to your 4% safe withdrawal rate and park the extra in a non-taxable account, knowing you’re not jeopardizing your plan. That said, I don’t personally follow the 4% rule. I’m currently using cash, annuities, and a rolling bond ladder instead…so it’s all a bit academic to me.
But one has to take the RMDs, no matter what one’s spending plan is, and as Richard makes clear, spending adjustments in his case are beside the point.
My understanding of the article is that it suggests using RMDs as an alternative to the 4% safe withdrawal rate. While this might work for a fortunate minority, it’s not viable for most retirees who need consistent spending, not withdrawals that fluctuate with portfolio size as market cycles shrink or grow the base for calculating annual spending. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the main point?
No, I think you’ve got it, but the context of the article shows that for a certain subset, RMDs might be the only withdrawal strategy needed. I thought the article was clear enough that this option might not be for everybody. Actually, I expect that it would work (works) for many HD readers and commentators. Were you in our system, for example, I’m sure you’d be fine with just an RMD strategy.
I was suggesting using the RMD percentages for all withdrawals qualified or not, not specifically the actual RMDs alone.
I see. Well, I’d not advise that in an overly broad way, so on second thought, I agree with Mark’s cautions.
Your last paragraph is correct, and makes me wonder why Christine Benz and colleagues come out with a new SWR each year ? Is this only for the newly retired ? Or all retired, which would be wrong, as you described.
Also, I just listened to Christine on a podcast. She stated that their annual SWR is based on their FUTURE projections about the market. That seems rather disappointing as no one can predict what will happen in the market , e.g. The stock market has predicted 9 of the last 5 recessions – Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Samuelson.
By contrast, Bill Bengen’s SWR is based on the historical record, such as it is.
Benz and colleagues indicate that their estimates only apply to people starting retirement.
However, these numbers aren’t meant to imply that people who are already retired should shift their spending up or down from year to year; rather, they represent our best estimate of the starting safe withdrawal rate for a person currently embarking on retirement.
https://www.morningstar.com/retirement/whats-safe-retirement-withdrawal-rate-2026
I’ve always assumed the annual update was for new retirees, it’s the only explanation that makes sense given the premise of SWR theory. I do enjoy reading Christine Benz’s work, particularly her articles on bucket strategy implementation
Thank you for the clarification. I agree – I like her work as well.
How do you and others feel about them prognosticating what the markets are going to do, to come up with their safe withdrawal member ?
Especially since the swr / number they put forth is supposed to be for people‘s 30 year retirement. I find this quite problematic.
My gut feeling is that the backward-looking approach isn’t perfect (past doesn’t guarantee future and all that), but at least it’s honest about what it shows: “Here’s what worked through actual historical catastrophes.” The forward-looking approach, to me anyway, dresses up educated guesses as precision. Although I feel they do it from a place of genuinely trying to be helpful. I think if you’re going to implement the SWR, maybe stick to the numbers from the original research. By annually adjusting the numbers, aren’t they essentially saying “but this time it’s different” every single year?
It is my understanding that annual inflation adjustments have the purpose of maintaining purchasing power. I’ve held the opinion that an initial withdrawal of 3.5-4.0% is probably ok for most retirees with a 30 year plan/horizon and typical portfolio (that’s a consideration, see Bengen and FireCalc) . Monte Carlo simulations back that up.
Norm, We’re talking about Morningstar’s yearly starting SWR revision percentage, not the annual inflation adjustment.