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Despite your down votes, I agree 100%. This site seems to be headed in the wrong direction. This site is the closest I get to social media. I have always enjoyed the comments, and the fact that, whether I agree with them or not, they are directed at the topic, not an attack on the writer’s personality.
I keep away from social media because it has become the cesspool of the internet. I truly hope that this site does not become one that I feel I can no longer feel comfortable interacting with due to the tenor of the commenting, and increasing number of down votes for innocuous comments on certain writers’ posts that seem like they are negative just because of who they are.
Someone once wrote that if you don’t get upset or angry about something you read or heard in the media every day, you should increase the diversity of the media sources you consume.
After peeking into the magic crystal ball (aka ChatGPT), Humbledollar – the happiest financial garden – draws about 2.6 to 4.8 million visitors a year with a peak of 510K in one 2023 month (the site wise wizards or admins surely know the count). If only 1% share their thoughts, that’s 5,000 monthly voices. Compared to a handful of up and down arrows fluttering like fairy dust, it feels like most visitors are politely enjoying wandering the garden paths, sharing secret winks and smiles in the shadows. Let the show go on, don’t be bothered by a little dust of confetti.
Wouldn’t shock me if 10% or less wandered to the forum
Looking at this from the other side, I enjoy clicking the up arrow on posts or comments I find helpful, insightful, or funny. To me it seems like a free way to “leave a tip” for good service. I always hope that an up arrow might provide just the tiniest bit of encouragement to someone.
And I suppose you can’t have up arrows without down arrows.
I personally use both up and down “votes” sparingly and for varying reasons. Most often I use them in lieu of a comment if I don’t think my comment would add anything to the conversation. Some of my reasons for down votes (which seems to be the focus of this conversation) may be because of a cutting or self-aggrandizing tone being used or a comment that is overly repetitive without substantive value in my opinion or one that is highly political. I rarely use a down vote just because I may disagree with the writer. I believe that having discussions with opposing opinions can be very helpful and informative. For example, I’ve gained a lot from hearing differing opinions on traditional Medicare vs. managed Medicare; TIPS ladder vs. annuity, estate planning with family estrangements, and much more.
For those people who are very invested in knowing why a down arrow is used on their comment, perhaps a hidden feature could be added that provides a drop down box such as used by Amazon to indicate a reason for the return. Perhaps a drop down list could provide a reason for the down vote such as “disagreed with the content” or “found the tone unnecessarily antagonistic” or “did not think comment added value to the discussion.” And these reasons would only appear if one sought this out because I’m guessing that knowing the reason for downvotes may only be of interest to the author of the comment and not general readership. I offer this up only as a suggestion to appease those who are aggrieved by downvotes without commentary. That being said, I don’t personally feel it necessary to add this feature to HD.
The bottom line for me is that HD is Jonathan’s ship to steer and he is the one to decide if any course corrections are needed.
As a person who does not use any social media opportunities, perhaps I don’t understand the issue in this discussion. I almost never use those little up an down arrows when I read responses, and I never click the Like icon on articles. I have my own ideas based on my life experiences as to how things really work. When I read something here that doesn’t feel right, I write a response. Basically, I don’t care what others think about what I write here. I know what has worked for me but my truth isn’t necessarily applicable to everyone else.
In personal finance, there are many available strategies which can be used to help someone meet their goals. Personal circumstances often mean that “universal truths” are not as universal as one might think.
When you participate at a site like this, you have to accept that while you can please some of the readers all of the time, and all of the readers some of the time, you won’t please all of the readers all of the time.
I think you’re taking this all a little too seriously. I’ve received my fair share of down votes, though not as many as R. Quinn and take each one as a good thing. It means I’ve pissed someone off a little bit, not too much that they’d actually say something bad about me, but enough for them to click a button.
It makes me feel, if just a little, how Dylan must have felt when he went electric at Newport.
Down arrows are basically here the kind of equivalent of the Roman Forum thumbs up or thumbs down without having to basically get in the arena oneself. RDQ himself labels many of his postings as rants; perhaps he wants to talk and maybe even his wife (who he has mentioned by name many times) tells him to talk/write to someone else, as she’s probably heard it all before.
This reminds me of when I was in a Weight Watchers group many years ago. The person leading it was a very nice woman, who apparently had lost just enough weight to somehow qualify as a group leader. She even herself told us that her managers had told her that she talks too much about herself at the meetings (sharing too much = ranting). I think she did use the meeting as her private therapy. I certainly wasn’t interested in, for instance, hearing bizarre places where she had snuck and eaten Oreos, among other tales. I had an epiphany when I said to someone on line as I waited for my weigh-in “Gee, I wonder what Lenora ate this week!” and realized, I need to find a new group leader! Others might want to humble brag about their living spaces or their luxury cars, material things that they are likewise “eating” as far as their consumption. I just skip over most of those — a different lifestyle than mine, nice it suits them. Or they just show repeatedly that their mind won’t be changed about some topics that I might be interested in, even when others offer better arguments.
Into the fray — by posting, one faces critics. Here, it’s an up or down arrow (and/or a posting). Sometimes these reactions by others temper or otherwise affect what you do or write next. Some people, at least on certain topics, just don’t get it — and they keep stirring the pot — but for what reason?
I emailed Jonathan a while ago with this question:
In Forum comments, would you consider removing the downvote option?
In original posts on the Forum, there is only an upvote option, no downvote.
If you feel a downvote option is not useful in the original post, why have it in the comments?
The downvote option just encourages forum comment trolls.
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After he replied, I followed up with this:
No, I would not favor adding downvotes to the original post.
Separately visible downvotes are what the trolls thrive on. I just don’t see the need: If a post were that far off-base, I figure it would just get a very small number of upvotes.
I’m on team #StarveTheTrolls.
I’ve been browsing this site for a while, and it seems to me that you’ve provided the closest thing to a “social media rant” and a downgrade to my personal enjoyment. Maybe this is a thought worth contemplating as you criticize others who spend their time and effort providing content.
re. Maybe this is a thought worth contemplating as you criticize others who spend their time and effort providing content
If you are directing this at me, I think you have missed the point – or maybe I am missing your point ? I have criticized those who spend their time and effort pressing little up or down arrows. I have NOT criticized ANYONE on their content.
If you read the comments below, you’ll see that others seemed to be turned off by these random arrow pushers who provide NO value to the discourse.
“If RDQ wants to stir the crap up again, thats his choice”…. your own words speak volumes
‘Your own words speak volumes”.
Thank you ! I am very pleased with my words, which you obviously didn’t read before posting. I wrote:
“I have criticized those who spend their time and effort pressing little up or down arrows. I have NOT criticized ANYONE on their content”.
Do you find that offensive ?
I certainly don’t like your tone; it’s reminiscent of the flavor of comments widely available on other, less pleasant and chaotic, discussion forums. This is precisely the reason I don’t frequent such sites and prioritize quality, like Humble Dollar, which on a daily basis has a more thoughtful and polite feel. It’s a frustrating paradox: sometimes the way a person expresses themselves completely undermines their message. The tone can become the real message, causing the words themselves to be lost. Honesty can come in many styles, some I’m less receptive towards.
RDQ is not the only one getting unexplained down votes. I get them on perfectly innocuous posts – like one today mentioning that 2FAs sometimes offer the use of email instead of texts. I figure there’s at least three people who down vote everything I post.
I was thinking of you as well when I posted my thoughts.
Thanks, David. At least I try to post a comment when I disagree.
I read the original post and decided it would be a waste of my time to comment. I’ll step into that ring this one time. I have been tempted to lob a few grenades from time to time and stir things up. However, I really do have other things to do. Some things I don’t comment on because I think there is a bubble and comfort zone which some will not leave or will merely respond with down arrows. Those arrows are nothing more than a form of covert attack. Civility is often a facade or a thin veneer. Up or down arrows may simply be automatic responses. Are posts or comments with up or down arrows better? Does the quantity represent anything? Are those with more up arrows more worthy of my attention? In fact, the arrows don’t matter to me, but do provide some entertainment value.. I’ll admit I tend to ignore content generated by writers enjoy making their lobs. It isn’t about the arrows. Merely the title of an article or reading a few brief sentences indicates when I should move on. It might be better if we couldn’t vote but could only leave comments. That would require discourse and would change the dynamic. Those who revel in down arrows and enjoy their lobs might change their ways. Perhaps this really is moving in the direction of a financial social media site. For example, it seems that the MSM finally is focusing on the problems of the Social Security trust fund, because it is politically expedient to do so. We see pundits of all stripes talking or writing about the “imminent failure” and as usual, this fear mongering is working. I’ve read more comments and articles about this at various sites in the last 3 months than in the preceding 10 years, when even the Comptroller of the U.S. was travelling the country and making stump speeches about this and the growing deficits. He quit in disgust as I recall.
I’m sorry you think the site is “headed in the wrong direction.” That, I’d say, is pretty harsh! Makes me feel like I’m wasting my dying days.
I believe HD participants should be able to express disapproval if someone repeatedly belabors the same point, especially if they label it as a rant, and they shouldn’t necessarily have to put themselves on the firing line to do so. So what should be the outlet for disapproval if someone chooses to rant and, indeed, admits that’s what they’re doing? Is ranting the goal here? A simple down vote seems pretty innocuous. Maybe the ranters need to show more self-control.
I don’t care about down arrows except, except those associated with a perfectly simple question.
I do think a gentle reminder that HD is a personal finance site is in order. While we sometimes stray on subjects, me included, i think the tie-in to financial related matters is important, but it’s your call Jonathan. That still leaves a wide range of topics.
Jonathan, accepting that HD participants should be able to express disapproval, don’t you think the ability to post a comment provides that, and does so better than a vote?
I can’t tell from a vote what the issue was. Was it disagreement with the content, disagreement with part of the content, not liking the tone, not liking to poster, fine with both but feel the subject has been beaten enough already? The comment doesn’t have to be long, but if someone disapproves enough to express an opinion, let’s hear why, and with ownership.
(I just replied to Mark Bergman’s comment on the other thread before I saw this one.)
Some comments get a large number of down votes. Long threads are already difficult enough to navigate without adding a bunch of comments that do nothing more than explain why some folks don’t like a comment.
I suspect that wouldn’t be an issue as most times, absent the ability to vote with a single click, most people won’t feel strongly about their comment to actually make it.
(No doubt this comment will get down votes, which I’m already fine with.)
Jonathan,
I’m sorry if my comments offended you in any way. That was not my intent. You are DEFINITELY NOT wasting your dying days.
My main reason I posted what I did is I have recently seen a negative vote total on the most innocuous points that some people make. As I stated I have never participated, nor commented on any social media sites, as from what I have heard, is that people seem to feel that their anonymity gives them the license to attack people when they wouldn’t do so if they were face to face with that person. I was hoping that pointing out readers who seem to target the commenter, not the comment, would reflect on what they are doing. I have been reading this site for years, and have loved the give and take of ideas, it’s just that I’m starting to feel uncomfortable with some of what I have been seeing.
Again, my apologies if I offended you.
If you don’t like someone’s post, skip it and move on. If RDQ wants to stir the crap up again, thats his choice. Voting is childish.
Here are a few personal thoughts on HD culture.
To me what people are saying with their down voting, when others “stir the crap”, or authors pound the table in an aggressive “hey idiots, wise up” post is this: less of this please, there’s too much of that on the ‘net already.
Readers here were attracted by Jonathan’s content and writing style, which is always smart, engaging, authentic, vulnerable, respectful, entertaining and informative; never rude, aggressive, impolite, narrow-minded, condescending or tone deaf.
He has always embraced polite, respectful expression of diverse ideas here, but always towards a purpose of helping others manage money better and use it for more long-term happiness and utility.
To me, this site has never been about rants or provocative pot-stirring. Less of that might make many here a happier reader, and — I pray — thoughtful, caring contributor.
I wish that would work, but I fear the result would be ranting to get attention. Like it or not, reasonable discourse would get drowned out by the loudest voices.
Disagree. If you don’t like someone’s post say so with your own post/response as to why. Clicking an arrow provides no feedback, In fact, poor behavior is more likely to be curbed by comments than arrows.
If downvotes are ineffective, why does RDQ whine endlessly about them?
I think RDQ is impervious to down votes or comments. I think he just wants attention and he gets it by ranting on topics he knows will garner strong responses.
It’s nice to know all my years of writing with different points of view on various subjects was just a psychological need deficiency.
Seems that way. Your tone is always that of a know it all and when someone calls you out you either deny or take a holier than thou tone. It would be nice if you could comment on financial topics without the attitude. Thanks
please, direct me to one example. I want to understand the perception I create.
You may wish to refer to the extended exchange in the comments section of your post “Going too [sic] far with FIRE”, in which a number of people, bbbobbins in particular, pointed out ways in which your tone is problematic.
If you are sincere in wanting to understand the perception you create, that might be a good place to start.
I did go back and read it all. There are more down arrows than I care to count and some were on things I just quoted and others simple questions.
I see nothing I would change and nothing that I would consider offensive or argumentative any more than some of the other comments.
It seems contrary views stated and defended are not acceptable to some people. I never named called or insulted anybody, but did challenge their statements or points of view. I can’t say the same for some comments directed at me. See below.
Perhaps, with comments rather than anonymous down arrows, he would stop both repeat posting and whining ! Don’t you think comments would be more impactful that silly down arrows ?
Perception is reality so no point discussing, but I sure would like to know more about whining. Can you give an example or two of my whining?
RDQ has received numerous negative comments including several from Jonathan–all to no effect that I am able to discern.
What effect would you like?
Down arrows are easy to blow off ; negative comments not so much.
So fascinating that all of my comments have down arrows, but all of Jonathan‘s have up arrows. Has anybody ever learned anything by an up or down arrow? If we’re all on this site to learn, comments are certainly going to be more impactful than silly little arrows.
Apparently some haven’t, though most have over the years.
Why is there “voting” on peoples comments ? If you have a comment, either positive or negative, post it. Otherwise, keep it to yourself if you don’t have the intestinal fortitude to post it publicly.
Is this Facebook or Instragram ? Are we posting to get “Likes” ?
It is childish and beneath the dignity of this blog site. Are we not adults here ? The ability to vote on comments should be removed.