FREE NEWSLETTER
Go to main Forum page »
The up/down vote system on HD seems to generate a surprising amount of heat for something that’s essentially just two triangles. But I’m less interested in the usual back-and-forth from the vocal few, wouldn’t it be cool to know what the silent majority actually thinks?
So here’s a little experiment in wonderful irony: use the arrows to vote about the arrows. No comment needed, no essay required.
⬆️ if you’re pro-arrows. ⬇️ if you’d happily see the back of them.
Yes, I’m aware that voting against the arrows requires using an arrow. That’s either a design flaw in my experiment or a design flaw in the system — which is rather the point.
As for what it’ll actually tell us: a heavily positive score suggests people broadly like the arrows, or at least don’t hate them enough to do anything about it. A heavily negative score would mean remarkably strong feeling against, given the effort required. And hovering around zero probably means either a genuine split, or widespread apathy which is its own kind of answer.
Completely unscientific, probably inconclusive — but at least it would be interesting.
I would have liked to see Mark’s simple experiment play out and happy to live with the results.
I personally think there is a place for up and down votes. On the down votes side, I have observed on many occasions where enough has been written and I do not wish to enter the fray. By adding a downvote I believe I helped to express the collective opinion of the HD community.
I understand it is imperfect system, such is life. I visit other websites and blogs associated with my other interests. It is alarming how quickly the comments section can dissolve into personal attacks and insults. At Humble Dollar I find the discourse to be courteous and educational. I believe the down votes have been a positive force which helped the HD community police itself. Imperfect, but what we have, or should I say used to have, and I respectfully suggest part of the reason Jonathan kept them in place.
I was a professor and taught writing. I also did scholarly research on the topic of feedback to writers. There were times I wished I could just use a down arrow on a student’s point or even their whole paper, but that wouldn’t have helped the student know what the issue was, and I wouldn’t have been doing my job. That’s why I disagree with the claim that a down arrow is “feedback” to the writer.
To offer a different perspective.
I think it admirable you took your responsibilities as a professor seriously, conducted yourself professionally as an educator and you did not take the easy way out.
I am in the final chapter of a 40 year career as an architect. In the architecture and engineering world we have a “Standard of Care” we are expected to meet. I like to think I have conducted myself professionally and exceeded that “standard of care” over my entire career. I suspect much like you in your profession.
Here at Humble Dollar we have people from all walks of life, that is the beauty of it. We are here voluntarily and not as part of our job. As such, I have no expectation that others will meet my personal “Standard of Care” for how they write or they how they vote. I do of course hope the contributions will be courteous and informative.
I have commented above why I support keeping the up and down arrows.
In addition to my academic career, I’ve been on the boards of several non-profits. I’ve thought a lot about organizations that rely on volunteer labor and goodwill. A pastor friend of mine wrote a good book about this. The main thesis is that the social contract with volunteers is different from that of paid employees. You have to treat them well or they will take their time and energy elsewhere. If it’s your job, you might have to put up with stuff. When you’re volunteering, you don’t have to.
As Kathy and Elaine noted on the “Ladies” post, HD is like a community garden that everyone needs to work in to make it successful. Most of us are volunteers when it comes to our contributions here. Having an environment where people feel respected and welcome is key to a healthy balance of participants and perspectives. Certainly some are more “sensitive” than others to negative undertones, but it takes all kinds of people to make a community, and perhaps those people see what others might miss sometimes.
I appreciate your thoughts!
A good analogy for the down arrow might be the “silent treatment” in a relationship — you know you’ve somehow annoyed your partner, but you have absolutely no idea why or how. As any marriage counsellor would tell you: communication is key. Funnily enough, a fictional forum councillor would probably give you exactly the same advice!
Completely agree. As someone else said, the arrow says nothing about whether a person didn’t like the substance of a comment, didn’t like the tone, doesn’t like the commenter, etc…
The down arrow gives people a quick and easy way to react, and maybe (?) there’s an argument to be made that’s sufficient reason to keep them. But let’s be honest, it’s fairly useless as feedback.
I’d prefer ditching all the one-click commentary via arrows and require commenting to express support/agreement or disagreement with a post. I think it would lead to less but more useful feedback.
I disagree with the removal of the down votes. People tend to read too much into their use as a tool to see general reader’s consensus NOTHING MORE. Many people don’t have loads of time to write paragraphs explaining why they agree or disagree. I support Jonathan’s original enablement.
There’s a lot of ground between being able to just click an arrow (which doesn’t say much of anything) and having to devote “loads of time to write paragraphs”.
I don’t usually want to spend a lot of time either, but if I care enough to comment, I can manage a word, a sentence, maybe even a few.
I see your point if the comment has content and substance and/or is clearly against house rules (like a political rant).
What I and some others objected to was downvotes on completely innocuous comments along the lines of “Thanks, [name]!” That is not a “readers’ consensus.” That’s just conveying personal dislike for the commenter, and that person has no idea why or what they’ve done to offend. I don’t see how that helps anyone, and it creates an unwelcoming environment.
Jonathan Clements reportedly insisted on the continuation of the up and down arrow system in the past.
That was then, and this is now. Down arrows are now unpopular and controversial, so they have been removed on an “experimental” basis.
Personally, I view the down arrow controversy as overheated and unimportant.
The seemingly endless, heated, occasionally rude comments in response to the Where Are The Ladies? post suggest that the HD site and the HD “community” have more serious issues and divisions than the use and alleged misuse of down arrows.
I support the downvote, as it gives a person an overall sense of how the community feels about a discussion point within a topic. The main topic (not messages about the topic) is already subject to only upvotes. I personally think some folks are too thin skinned about the feedback their messages generate. I think removing the downvote will only contribute to the proliferation of non relevant topics/messages posted on this site.
The problem with the down arrow, at least from my perspective, is that you didn’t know what was disliked, the topic, the point of view or the person writing the post. I often received a down arrow for a simple question.
I guess with only an up arrow, that distinction is less important.
I would say (at least from my perspective) that I sometimes did comment when using the down arrow, but oftentimes did not if I was in agreement with others that already said what I agreed with- no sense in cluttering up the board with similar dialogue! As I previously said, I believe doing away with the down arrows will take away the general sense of agreement/disagreement on responses to a topic. If the board moderator prefers to do so- that’s his/her decision. I think some perspective is lost with the recent change, and I think it’s an accommodation to folks that are too sensitive about the arrows.
an accommodation to folks that are too sensitive
Perhaps if you were an HD commenter who in recent weeks has been targeted with abuse, you would feel differently. I noticed on 3/27 when the experiment removing downvotes began that I immediately felt happy again to be reading HD. Life is difficult enough without having such additional negativity intruding. Thank you, Elaine and Bogdan!
Kinda my point about being too sensitive. There are bigger issues in the world than worrying about someone’s up or down vote on a blog. I believe the whole issue started with a few complainers about the downvotes, and it snowballed from there. The downvote issue was a non-issue until then.
A decision was made to remove the downvotes, at least as an initial experiment. Please tell us your thoughts on this change!
Bogdan, I feel that the down vote was being misused. I don’t think that I was ever a target, but other writers certainly accumulated uncalled for red. I’m glad they’re gone. And some of my old friends are back today, things are looking up.
I’m grateful that you have implemented this change and hope it is permanent.
🔼
I think it is a positive change. I understand why they were there originally but they came to be increasingly abused from the original intent causing unnecessary distraction and drift from the positive direction of the community.
Deleted
I miss the arrows because they gave me an idea of the general consensus on my comments which the vast majority of time were positive. On the rare occasion when it was a net negative it made me uncomfortable and reflect on what message the “audience” was conveying.
Unfortunately it appeared that not everyone reflected on the message, and adjusted accordingly.
Again it’s unfortunate that I won’t get a consensus on this post.
Up or down?
Downvotes are now gone, folks.
It can’t hurt. Sounds like a positive move to me!
Awesome!
Oh my, so it is. Gone is the easy one-click sneer — it seems that if someone wants to express disapproval these days, they’ll have to do it the old-fashioned way and actually put fingers to keyboard and explain their reasoning. Rather elegant, if you ask me.